Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

#5 Technology, part 1:

Improved Shipyards:

1)  Heavy Battleships.

• Cost 17 IPC, Move 2, Attack 4, Defend 2 shots at 5 (take best result)

2)  Improved Cruisers

• Cost 9 IPC, Move 2, Attack 3, Defend  3.

3)  Super Submarines.

• Cost 5, Move 2, Attack 3, Defend 1, CRD for 1, 2, 3 or 4 damage (up from 1-3).

4)  Destroyer.

• Cost 7, Move 2, Attack 2, Defend 2, Shore Bombard at 2.

5)  Other ships

• Transport, Cost 6
• Aircraft Carrier, Cost 13

NOTE:  If BB/AC prices swapped, per other suggestion, swap prices set in this technology.

@Young:

@Vance:

Notice that affects Japan, USSR and ANZAC too.  The big tech developer would be Germany early on and then USA later on, which is historically correct.

HOORRAAYY FOR HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS !!

I was going to say something, but did not.

It would not be unreasonable to see Germany, Japan and America with all 6 technologies by the end of the game, and I have no problem with that.

@JimmyHat:

@salan:

In our house rules we have Research Facilities… these work like Industrial Facilities in that they can be bombed by enemy forces.  They have 4 / 8 health, each currently functioning research facility rolls 1 die on ‘research development’ phase.  can have 1 per territory, are destroyed when conquered (conquering nation can loot a technology on a roll of 6 when destroying (looting) the facility).

Facilities cost 15 IPC to purchase in our games.

we found this works awesome, as it represents a repeatable die roll, with strategic and tactical placement and objectives of having a building that needs to be defended and attacked, while still maintaining the same ON BOARD style that every other aspect of the game features.

Couple of questions.  Do you play 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3?  Which countries start with research faciliities and how many?  How does ANZAC or Italy fair in this scheme, do they ever tech?  Do you notice one power getting techs more than others?  Perhaps one side?

since i got the global 1940 (europe/pacific combined) we’ve been playing with just me and my wife… takes maybe a month for a game as we added finland and canada nations, and play rather slowly.  In our G40 games no one started with facilities and everyone had the option of buying them.  we found that majority of the powers would tend to buy a 1 to 2 at the start, and maybe one later on.  the initial investment needed 3 turns to turn a profit vs purchasing dice so doing so earlier was ideal… This style really favored UK and US over say Germany or Russia thou, and we found the allies getting a distinct advantage.  So the last few games we played of G40 we started what we classified as Major powers with 2 facilities, and regional powers with 1 facility, and minor nations with 0.

Majors:
US/UK/Russia/Germany/Japan
Regional:
Italy/Anzac/IndiaUK
Minor:
Canada/Finland/France/China

again by pure numbers, allies should gain more tech over time.  you could start the axis players with an extra research facility each if wanted, which with a 1 per territory rule would at least make it easier to lose the extra one as it would need to be placed in a spot that might not be as easily defensible.

I don’t think I’m missing someone.  We both enjoyed the free starting technology Idea way more then purchasing from scratch.  After all nations start with IC’s for free.  we play technology as a way to speed the game up, once they start getting out there people start getting a bit of an advantage beyond pure map layout.  the world war was not a balanced affair, the nations and people involved didn’t strive to make it so.  We see this represented in the map board and IPC per turn layout and value of territory, and axis and allies is generally a historically inspired strategy game.

what we do now a days thou is play the variant 1939 map from HBG/FMG with 6 majors, 6 regional, 6 minor nations and 9 neutral blocks represented with their own custom painted armies.  In the new game style Majors start with 2, Regionals start with 1, and minors can never buy them, but have the ability to ‘learn’ from a allied major gaining tech then rolling a 6 after the tech breakthrough in order to share with 1 minor nation, or looting from a conquered facility.

to answer your other question, we found that nations who normally wouldn’t have any technologies in our previous (before facilities) games were actually getting into the technology races and it wasn’t all that unbalanced as everyone was getting 1 to 3 by the end of the game minimally.

@Cmdr:

@Young:

@Vance:

Notice that affects Japan, USSR and ANZAC too.  The big tech developer would be Germany early on and then USA later on, which is historically correct.

HOORRAAYY FOR HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS !!

I was going to say something, but did not.

It would not be unreasonable to see Germany, Japan and America with all 6 technologies by the end of the game, and I have no problem with that.

ya, its really rather interesting to see the major players advance past the minor players in more then just units.  Its logically sound and historically true in that the war developed far beyond simple ownership of land.

@Young:

Will anyone be submitting a version of this R&D rule (if so, please hilite the title with bold red).

Thought we already had one, in the poll.  If not, I’ll consolidate down what was said into one coherent post - if and when I get my head above water again! (Should be no later than Tuesday…Kids go back to school FINALLY…fracking, week off for Thanksgiving…I’ll give them thanksgiving by not…sorry, where was I?)

Research & Development (Young Grasshopper & Cmdr Jennifer)

The Research & Development Phase is no longer an optional rule, instead……

Each power will receive free dice rolls @6 to develop technology, based on the amount of cash they hold at the beginning of their turn.

$10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll
$50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls
$90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls
$120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls
$150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls
$225 + IPC = 6 Rolls

If the requirements are met, nations will receive their free roll/s regardless of how they accumulated their cash, or how many technologies they own (unless they own all technologies available, in which case they will cease researching technologies). National powers may purchase additional research dice if they wish, at the cost of $8 IPC each, and they must purchase at least 4 dice but no more than 6 dice if they purchase any dice.

Each national power must have control of their Capital and be at war in order to research technologies.

China may not research technologies under any circumstances.

For each 6 rolled, that Nation will receive a dice roll to develop a technology by matching the # on the dice with the # on the chart. Rolls for technologies already owned may be re-rolled.

Research and Development Chart

1. Improved Training and Technology (Combine the following):

• Advanced Artillery (support 2 infantry of any type).  Your artillery may now move 2 spaces, if and only if paired with a mechanized infantry or armor unit moving from the same place to the same place.
• Improved Mechanized Infantry (attack at 2, move 2 can be paired with artillery to attack at 3) {edit: fixed spelling~Jen}

2. Improved Aeronautics (Combine the following):

• Jet Fighters (attack 4, defend 5)
• Long Range Aircraft (fighters/tacticals 6 move, strategics 8 move)

3. Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):

• Paratroopers (2 infantry)
• Heavy Bombers (2d6)

4. Improved Factories (Combine the following):

• Improved Industrial Complexes (Minors Cost 12, build 5; Majors cost 24, build 12)
• War Bonds (roll 2d6, take best result +2)

5. Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

• Improved Warships
  ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
  ** Submarines now cost 5.
  ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
  ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
  ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
  ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar (AA Guns fire at 2 or less)
• Rockets (each airbases fires one rocket per SBR rules with a range of 4, may not be intercepted.)
  ** Clarification from Box Rules/Larry’s Ruling:  Rockets may only fire once per enemy facility, per turn.

Optional Rule:  You may elect to play without technologies in any game.

Edited to correct a spelling error.

Was trying to word it in such a way as Technology was a core rule, but there was an official optional rule to play without technology.  Sort of like how technology is an optional rule in Global.  That way, the default is technology on.

If I missed a fundamental part of the rule that we agreed on, let me know.  I think I have it all, but you never know.  I don’t want someone feeling like I purposely left their suggestion out!

@mantlefan:

I am opposed to the dice being based on cash on hand. It gives too much incentive for saving IPC’s which slows the game down. Instead, why not base it on where your income marker is at the start of your turn + NOs you currently satisfy? This gives incentive to attack and get the game moving, as well as holding territories you did attack so that the enemy doesn’t take them back before you get their income.

For example

0-18= 0 Rolls
19-35= 1 Roll
36-60= 2 rolls
61-95= 3 rolls
96+ = 4 rolls

And just so tech isn’t totally free, have the rolls cost 2 IPC each. Or maybe 2 each and 1 for each one thereafter.

I realize that the idea in post 1 allows players to save up to get more tech rolls but IMO all that encourages is slower, riskier play. I am pretty uncomfortable with any system slowing the game down by encouraging the saving of IPCs.

Or, if the problem is minor powerss not being allowed into tech, give discounts for starting with more IPC. Economies of scale and all that.

I kinda like those

Should there be a limit on how many IPCs you can save?  I mean, if IPCs really represent “1 million man hours of military industrial production”, wouldn’t saving all your IPCs for a turn be like laying off the entire workforce for 3 months and then making them all work double time the following 3 months?

@Vance:

Should there be a limit on how many IPCs you can save?  I mean, if IPCs really represent “1 million man hours of military industrial production”, wouldn’t saving all your IPCs for a turn be like laying off the entire workforce for 3 months and then making them all work double time the following 3 months?

Do you mean in general?

I’d say no limits, since saving IPC is giving up the advantage of time.

Like maybe you can’t save up more than 25% or something?

No! No need to limit things!

You know, I’d love a system based on how much money you earn, not how much you have on hand.  The only problems I have these:

1)  The enemy will take your land before your next round.  Do we want this to be the case?
2)  Technology comes before combat moves, so you cannot take territories to get your income up, do we want that to be the case?

BTW, I am only offering suggestions.

That said, I see no problem with a country saving IPC.  It’s a good tactic even now, without having technology.  You cannot afford to put out XYZ or you want to save cash so you can get X-number of infantry or whatever.  Thing is, if a nation is shooting itself in the foot (it has the cash, it has the ability to use the cash and there is a productive use for the cash that is less and less productive if you wait more and more rounds) then I see no problem with them doing so.

I see your argument, it makes logical sense, but I dismiss it for two reasons:
1)  It was not voted on in the original poll.
2)  I like the cash on hand system better since it allows nations to save the one or two IPC needed to qualify for a technology.  Not sure about the world at large, but I’ve often found myself with 1 or 2 extra IPC that I just had no valid reason to spend, this would put those to use.

@mantlefan:

I already noted this as well, you can take the territories; the turn before. Then you need to try to hold them. Therefore this system does not reward the 1 to 2 inf + ftr trading that we so often see on the Russian front.

A system based on income encourages aggressiveness and putting more troops on the line. A system based on cash on hand encourages sluggish playing and minimal actual commitment to territories. If you want dice you have to earn them by taking and holding territories, rather than slowing the game down to wait for a miracle tech to save the day.

well that makes a lot of sense.  You are convincing me that the tech should be based off income instead of CoH.  As Jen mentioned people can still save up for purchases, but not in order to get more tech dice.  Moving the game forward at a fast pace should be a goal of ours, we don’t want 20+ round online games to be the standard.

Maybe for the final vote, two versions could be made: 1 based on cash on hand, and one based on income from territories.

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

I see your argument, it makes logical sense, but I dismiss it for two reasons:
1)  It was not voted on in the original poll.
2)  I like the cash on hand system better since it allows nations to save the one or two IPC needed to qualify for a technology.  Not sure about the world at large, but I’ve often found myself with 1 or 2 extra IPC that I just had no valid reason to spend, this would put those to use.

Those ipcs always get spent the next round.  I agree with mantlefan that basing it off CoH will slow the game down, like you said above.  It sounds like you would be willing to save 3-5 ipcs one round if it meant another tech die next round no?

Yes, I’d save 1-5 IPC to get up to the next bracket, it’s cheaper than buying 4 dice.

I am good with limiting you to up to 5 IPC saved from the previous round to be added in.  Not sure how you would work it on the table top, but in ABattlemap you could use the Researchers column in the income table to track that.  Probably on the table I’d have to slip the saved cash that is counted under my setup tile or something else.

No arbitrary limits, if you can save money then you can save as much as you like towards tech.

Hey Mantlefan, if you find some free time you would mind going over our other Delta proposals?  Getting a new set of eyes would be great.  I would suggest reading the original proposal, making comments on that and then see if that area was covered.  UK Exile I think is the next one to be completed, and then neutral blocks and aa guns.

Also using A2 as the base we are trying to achieve balance between the two sides while giving the axis (who hold initiative) multiple avenues of attack.  Its tricky!

Yes, I understood what you were saying, Mantlefan.  It makes sense in certain aspects, but I feel given just how expensive it is to buy tech dice (32 IPC for the first 4, 48 for the first 6 with a maximum of 6 dice per turn) that countriest who cannot save their cash may not be able to participate in getting technologies.    Pretty much the only way smaller countries have to get technologies (mostly India and Australia, but I’ve seen Japan get crushed under the jack-boot of American imperialism as well) is the free dice system.  If they cannot save enough to get that one free die, they might not be able to get any technologies.

Perhaps, and I cannot read your mind, but perhaps you forgot that the price of extra dice was pretty hefty under the new system?  To put it mildly, it would take 50-67% of Germany’s income just to buy a set of dice to augment their free ones.

Here’s a counter proposal we never considered.  Stick with 2 charts but have one be the “free dice chart” and the other a “dice only chart” where the free dice chart only has half the abilities of the other.  So if you rolled your free dice and got #3 then you would only get Paratrooper’s technology, not the Heavy Bombers.  If you purchased dice and got #3 then you would get both Paratroopers and Heavy Bombers.

For table top play you throw red dice for purchased tech and white dice for free tech and there you go.  For online you just have two command lines.  On the battleboards (I call all the boards battleboards, not just the actual battleboard) just go with Chart #1 is free and Chart #2 is paid.  You can never get the “free” technology with “paid” dice.  Not that you would want too.  Same for the reverse.

(quoted the rule below, so you don’t have to go back and find it.)

3. Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):

• Paratroopers (2 infantry)
• Heavy Bombers (2d6)