Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

[Jennifer]

IT should be, but it’s never been listed as an optional rule before.  Most places house rule that the games have no technology developments, but it’s never been segregated as an optional rule, at least that I can remember.

Yes, by round 12 everyone should have a technology or two.  The idea is that your units get better at killing each other as the game progresses.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Vance:

So correct me if I’m wrong……

Original:
$0-24= 0 Rolls
$25-74= 1 Roll
$75-99= 2 Rolls
$100+= 3 Rolls

Amended:
10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

…but isn’t the amended version going to lead to an awful lot of technology development?  At this rate smaller nations like ANZAC and Italy will each have a tech by round 6 and perhaps 2 by round 12 (on average).  Larger nations can expect to have 2 by round 6 and maybe 4 or more by round 12!  I like the original schedule better than the amended one, which would make the game too volatile and hard to follow.  The game has to be playable.

Playing with tech should be optional.

We have discussed it earlier and I think we agreed to keep R&D an optional rule, or change it to an optional rule (whichever).

I was reluctant, but compromised, I really would like to see increments of 50 like I suggested in a previous post. I don’t think that there should be more freebies after, 4 for $150. I guess I’m just anxious to get a rule finalized.

[Guest]

Wouldn’t lowering the income necessary to get 2 rolls from 75 to 50 be rather “inflationary” for tech, given that most countries never make $75 but most can manage $50?

[Guest]

By round 3, USA will have had 6 dice rolls and will already have 1 tech (on average) before they even enter the war for doing absolutely nothing.  How about if nations not yet at war do not get the free dice rolls?

[Robbernosky]

@Vance:

So correct me if I’m wrong……

Original:
$0-24= 0 Rolls
$25-74= 1 Roll
$75-99= 2 Rolls
$100+= 3 Rolls

Amended:
10 IPC = 1 Roll
50 IPC = 2 Rolls
90 IPC = 3 Rolls
120 IPC = 4 Rolls
150 IPC = 5 Rolls
225 IPC = 6 Rolls

…but isn’t the amended version going to lead to an awful lot of technology development?  At this rate smaller nations like ANZAC and Italy will each have a tech by round 6 and perhaps 2 by round 12 (on average).  Larger nations can expect to have 2 by round 6 and maybe 4 or more by round 12!  I like the original schedule better than the amended one, which would make the game too volatile and hard to follow.  The game has to be playable.

Playing with tech should be optional.

I still support the double dice thing, so we can have more, not as good techs.  That way, 4 techs wouldn’t be incredible.

[Young Grasshopper]

Version #2

Research and Development is an optional rule that must be agreed upon before play begins. If it is agreed that R&D is playable, the following rules will be recognized.

1. Each power will be eligible to roll 1 or more free research dice depending on the amount of cash they hold at the beginning of their turn.

$10 - $49 = 1 roll
$50 - $99 = 2 rolls
$100 - $149 = 3 rolls
$150 or more = 4 rolls

2. Each power may also purchase unlimited dice rolls for $10 each, in addition to any free rolls they receive. Regardless of weather or not rolls fail or succeed, research dice do not carry over from one turn to another, and may not be saved from one turn to another. All dice (free and purchased) must be rolled together.

3. For each research dice that rolls a 6, a technology may be developed, by rolling a development dice.

4. Neutral powers may not receive free dice for research, nor purchase dice for research, until they have entered the war. (if the US declares war at the end of turn 3, they must wait until the research and development phase of turn 4, to roll research dice)

The Development Chart

1. Improved Training and Technology (Combine the following):

• Light Artillery (each can be pulled by a tank or a mech infantry)
• Improved Mechanized Infantry (attack at 2, move 2 can be paired iwth artillery to attack at 3)

2. Improved Aeronautics (Combine the following):

• Jet Fighters (attack 4, defend 5)
• Long Range Aircraft (fighters/tacticals move 5 or 6 from a base / strategics move 7 or 8 from a base)

3. Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):

• Paratroopers (2 infantry)
• Heavy Bombers (attack with 2@6)

4. Improved Factories (Combine the following):

• Improved Industrial Complexes (Minors Cost 12, build 5; Majors cost 24, build 12)
• War Bonds (roll 2d6, take best result +2)

5. Improved Nautical advancements  (Combine the following):

• Armor hulls (Battleships must endure 3 hits before sinking)
• Super Submarines

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar (AA Guns fire at 2 or less)
• Rockets (each airbases fires one rocket per SBR rules with a range of 4, may not be intercepted.)

My changes to Jen’s original chart are marked in red

[JimmyHat]

@salan:

In our house rules we have Research Facilities… these work like Industrial Facilities in that they can be bombed by enemy forces.  They have 4 / 8 health, each currently functioning research facility rolls 1 die on ‘research development’ phase.  can have 1 per territory, are destroyed when conquered (conquering nation can loot a technology on a roll of 6 when destroying (looting) the facility).

Facilities cost 15 IPC to purchase in our games.

we found this works awesome, as it represents a repeatable die roll, with strategic and tactical placement and objectives of having a building that needs to be defended and attacked, while still maintaining the same ON BOARD style that every other aspect of the game features.

Couple of questions.  Do you play 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3?  Which countries start with research faciliities and how many?  How does ANZAC or Italy fair in this scheme, do they ever tech?  Do you notice one power getting techs more than others?  Perhaps one side?

[JimmyHat]

@Vance:

By round 3, USA will have had 6 dice rolls and will already have 1 tech (on average) before they even enter the war for doing absolutely nothing.  How about if nations not yet at war do not get the free dice rolls?

This could be gold right here.

[Young Grasshopper]

@JimmyHat:

@Vance:

By round 3, USA will have had 6 dice rolls and will already have 1 tech (on average) before they even enter the war for doing absolutely nothing.  How about if nations not yet at war do not get the free dice rolls?

This could be gold right here.

I agree, and I wish to use it in my version #2. Thanks

[Guest]

Notice that affects Japan, USSR and ANZAC too.  The big tech developer would be Germany early on and then USA later on, which is historically correct.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Vance:

Notice that affects Japan, USSR and ANZAC too.  The big tech developer would be Germany early on and then USA later on, which is historically correct.

HOORRAAYY FOR HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS !!

[Jennifer]

#5 Technology, part 1:

Improved Shipyards:

1)  Heavy Battleships.

• Cost 17 IPC, Move 2, Attack 4, Defend 2 shots at 5 (take best result)

2)  Improved Cruisers

• Cost 9 IPC, Move 2, Attack 3, Defend  3.

3)  Super Submarines.

• Cost 5, Move 2, Attack 3, Defend 1, CRD for 1, 2, 3 or 4 damage (up from 1-3).

4)  Destroyer.

• Cost 7, Move 2, Attack 2, Defend 2, Shore Bombard at 2.

5)  Other ships

• Transport, Cost 6
• Aircraft Carrier, Cost 13

NOTE:  If BB/AC prices swapped, per other suggestion, swap prices set in this technology.

[Jennifer]

@Young:

@Vance:

Notice that affects Japan, USSR and ANZAC too.  The big tech developer would be Germany early on and then USA later on, which is historically correct.

HOORRAAYY FOR HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS !!

I was going to say something, but did not.

It would not be unreasonable to see Germany, Japan and America with all 6 technologies by the end of the game, and I have no problem with that.

[salan]

@JimmyHat:

@salan:

In our house rules we have Research Facilities… these work like Industrial Facilities in that they can be bombed by enemy forces.  They have 4 / 8 health, each currently functioning research facility rolls 1 die on ‘research development’ phase.  can have 1 per territory, are destroyed when conquered (conquering nation can loot a technology on a roll of 6 when destroying (looting) the facility).

Facilities cost 15 IPC to purchase in our games.

we found this works awesome, as it represents a repeatable die roll, with strategic and tactical placement and objectives of having a building that needs to be defended and attacked, while still maintaining the same ON BOARD style that every other aspect of the game features.

Couple of questions.  Do you play 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3?  Which countries start with research faciliities and how many?  How does ANZAC or Italy fair in this scheme, do they ever tech?  Do you notice one power getting techs more than others?  Perhaps one side?

since i got the global 1940 (europe/pacific combined) we’ve been playing with just me and my wife… takes maybe a month for a game as we added finland and canada nations, and play rather slowly.  In our G40 games no one started with facilities and everyone had the option of buying them.  we found that majority of the powers would tend to buy a 1 to 2 at the start, and maybe one later on.  the initial investment needed 3 turns to turn a profit vs purchasing dice so doing so earlier was ideal… This style really favored UK and US over say Germany or Russia thou, and we found the allies getting a distinct advantage.  So the last few games we played of G40 we started what we classified as Major powers with 2 facilities, and regional powers with 1 facility, and minor nations with 0.

Majors:
US/UK/Russia/Germany/Japan
Regional:
Italy/Anzac/IndiaUK
Minor:
Canada/Finland/France/China

again by pure numbers, allies should gain more tech over time.  you could start the axis players with an extra research facility each if wanted, which with a 1 per territory rule would at least make it easier to lose the extra one as it would need to be placed in a spot that might not be as easily defensible.

I don’t think I’m missing someone.  We both enjoyed the free starting technology Idea way more then purchasing from scratch.  After all nations start with IC’s for free.  we play technology as a way to speed the game up, once they start getting out there people start getting a bit of an advantage beyond pure map layout.  the world war was not a balanced affair, the nations and people involved didn’t strive to make it so.  We see this represented in the map board and IPC per turn layout and value of territory, and axis and allies is generally a historically inspired strategy game.

what we do now a days thou is play the variant 1939 map from HBG/FMG with 6 majors, 6 regional, 6 minor nations and 9 neutral blocks represented with their own custom painted armies.  In the new game style Majors start with 2, Regionals start with 1, and minors can never buy them, but have the ability to ‘learn’ from a allied major gaining tech then rolling a 6 after the tech breakthrough in order to share with 1 minor nation, or looting from a conquered facility.

to answer your other question, we found that nations who normally wouldn’t have any technologies in our previous (before facilities) games were actually getting into the technology races and it wasn’t all that unbalanced as everyone was getting 1 to 3 by the end of the game minimally.

[salan]

@Cmdr:

@Young:

@Vance:

Notice that affects Japan, USSR and ANZAC too.  The big tech developer would be Germany early on and then USA later on, which is historically correct.

HOORRAAYY FOR HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS !!

I was going to say something, but did not.

It would not be unreasonable to see Germany, Japan and America with all 6 technologies by the end of the game, and I have no problem with that.

ya, its really rather interesting to see the major players advance past the minor players in more then just units.  Its logically sound and historically true in that the war developed far beyond simple ownership of land.

[Jennifer]

@Young:

Will anyone be submitting a version of this R&D rule (if so, please hilite the title with bold red).

Thought we already had one, in the poll.  If not, I’ll consolidate down what was said into one coherent post - if and when I get my head above water again! (Should be no later than Tuesday…Kids go back to school FINALLY…fracking, week off for Thanksgiving…I’ll give them thanksgiving by not…sorry, where was I?)

[Jennifer]

Research & Development (Young Grasshopper & Cmdr Jennifer)

The Research & Development Phase is no longer an optional rule, instead……

Each power will receive free dice rolls @6 to develop technology, based on the amount of cash they hold at the beginning of their turn.

$10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll
$50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls
$90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls
$120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls
$150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls
$225 + IPC = 6 Rolls

If the requirements are met, nations will receive their free roll/s regardless of how they accumulated their cash, or how many technologies they own (unless they own all technologies available, in which case they will cease researching technologies). National powers may purchase additional research dice if they wish, at the cost of $8 IPC each, and they must purchase at least 4 dice but no more than 6 dice if they purchase any dice.

Each national power must have control of their Capital and be at war in order to research technologies.

China may not research technologies under any circumstances.

For each 6 rolled, that Nation will receive a dice roll to develop a technology by matching the # on the dice with the # on the chart. Rolls for technologies already owned may be re-rolled.

Research and Development Chart

1. Improved Training and Technology (Combine the following):

• Advanced Artillery (support 2 infantry of any type).  Your artillery may now move 2 spaces, if and only if paired with a mechanized infantry or armor unit moving from the same place to the same place.
• Improved Mechanized Infantry (attack at 2, move 2 can be paired with artillery to attack at 3) {edit: fixed spelling~Jen}

2. Improved Aeronautics (Combine the following):

• Jet Fighters (attack 4, defend 5)
• Long Range Aircraft (fighters/tacticals 6 move, strategics 8 move)

3. Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):

• Paratroopers (2 infantry)
• Heavy Bombers (2d6)

4. Improved Factories (Combine the following):

• Improved Industrial Complexes (Minors Cost 12, build 5; Majors cost 24, build 12)
• War Bonds (roll 2d6, take best result +2)

5. Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

• Improved Warships
  ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
  ** Submarines now cost 5.
  ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
  ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
  ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
  ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar (AA Guns fire at 2 or less)
• Rockets (each airbases fires one rocket per SBR rules with a range of 4, may not be intercepted.)
  ** Clarification from Box Rules/Larry’s Ruling:  Rockets may only fire once per enemy facility, per turn.

Optional Rule:  You may elect to play without technologies in any game.

Edited to correct a spelling error.

[Young Grasshopper]

Great version Jen, thanks for the entry…… BTW, I think your first sentence contradicts your last (just an observation).

[Jennifer]

Was trying to word it in such a way as Technology was a core rule, but there was an official optional rule to play without technology.  Sort of like how technology is an optional rule in Global.  That way, the default is technology on.

If I missed a fundamental part of the rule that we agreed on, let me know.  I think I have it all, but you never know.  I don’t want someone feeling like I purposely left their suggestion out!

[Robbernosky]

@mantlefan:

I am opposed to the dice being based on cash on hand. It gives too much incentive for saving IPC’s which slows the game down. Instead, why not base it on where your income marker is at the start of your turn + NOs you currently satisfy? This gives incentive to attack and get the game moving, as well as holding territories you did attack so that the enemy doesn’t take them back before you get their income.

For example

0-18= 0 Rolls
19-35= 1 Roll
36-60= 2 rolls
61-95= 3 rolls
96+ = 4 rolls

And just so tech isn’t totally free, have the rolls cost 2 IPC each. Or maybe 2 each and 1 for each one thereafter.

I realize that the idea in post 1 allows players to save up to get more tech rolls but IMO all that encourages is slower, riskier play. I am pretty uncomfortable with any system slowing the game down by encouraging the saving of IPCs.

Or, if the problem is minor powerss not being allowed into tech, give discounts for starting with more IPC. Economies of scale and all that.

I kinda like those