Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

Yes, there was some clarifying text added.  Otherwise, there was only the change to threshhold amounts on what qualified you for a free die roll or not.

Mantle, thing is, you are arguing for a big shift, a completely different way to handle how technology is rolled, not changing a threshhold of what qualifies a die, not changing the price of a die, you want the entire turn order changed to:  Roll for Technology, Collect Income, Purchase New Units, Combat Movement, Conduct Combat, Non-Combat Movement, Place New Units."  In order to swallow this, you need to give us some really good justification.  None of us see the problem you do, and you won’t tell us what this huge problem is that absolutely demands this change or the game will forever be destroyed.  Maybe it exists and you can tell us what it is, but I don’t see it and without it, I cannot justify overriding two votes because you want to do it differently.

@Cmdr:

Let’s be clear, however.  Switching from a Cash on Hand situation (which is what was voted on twice before we got here) to an Income Only situation is akin to changing when you collect income from at the end of your turn to the start of your turn.  It’s huge!  A massive change and one that was never voted for!

I don’t follow you Jenn, but perhaps that is because I don’t usually play with tech.  Like near never.  R&D happens at the beginning of the turn, that would be when you would logically count the income +NOs.  It would require keeping track of a number to do it from the end of your last turn.  That is what CoH is doing, it is rewarding the ‘paper thin tiger’ as you put it for land grabs.

@mantlefan:

YG clearly didn’t think that changing techs from 6 to 10 and having a player pick 6 for which to roll (a brilliant idea, IMO) was too big a change for the purpose of this thread, or he wouldn’t have posted it. My point is that since there is no fair way to say which ideas are too big and which are small enough, why try to do so?

Yes, but you were the only one to show support for it.  Not to mention, I don’t want to go through the effort of trying to work out 10 technologies that are all balanced, when I already had 6.  Stop lumping more work on me!  I already have to run a tournament, play the game for fun, deal with the holidays coming up and help out here!  Sheesh, give me a break man!  Leave my pet project alone!!!

Seriously, if you think it’s broken to have cash on hand and the only way to fix it is to change to collect income only, then please give us WHY it is broken the way we have it now, but not broken your way.  You seem to be stalling, hoping for someone to give you the answer.  Common man!  Tell us WHY, don’t just demand it be changed without reason!

I gave you 7 reasons it is not broken to keep it as is.  You have given us 0 reasons that it is broken.

Keep in mind, if you successfully argue that it’s broken, I have an argument that it should exclude ALL income that is not from control of territories.  So don’t shoot yourself in the foot by trying to win an argument that probably does not need to be won!

@Cmdr:

The brackets are designed in such a way that it would be crippling for almost any nation throughout the game to try and save up for extra dice.  It may be plausible to see them saving up a few IPC a round for 12 rounds and get up a whole bracket, but even that is not too bad, that’s 12 rounds of a few units not being built, not getting in position and not attacking you.  Keep in mind, Mantlefan, it’s 40 IPC per bracket.  Most of these countries dont even earn 40 IPC, let alone would be willing, able and not punshed for saving that much money in any given turn.  
right.  No extra tech dice for minor powers, we get it.  They’re lucky if they can get 1 free die.  And remember this is a 6 player game. :roll:

Moreover, keep in mind you can get a “free” die for 15 IPC, instead of saving 40 IPC to get it.  So it would behoove you to buy a die or two, instead of trying to save up all this money.

I think the odds of “ludicrous and asinine” levels of saving for a free die are pretty low, and when it occurs, it’ll be so devastating to the fool who tried it that they’ll lose the game - even if they were winning before.
I disagree, people will save ipcs if its just a few to make it to the next free die.  They won’t save alot…of course I’m talking about the major powers here, cause the little guys get the shaft.

I don’t like it, you’re shutting out the little guys and then pouring on the options for the agressors who take capitals and get paid plus free tech!

No one has bothered to try and argue why the new system is better, or counter the arguments made before.  We have changed the basis of the argument of income instead of cash on hand from “they’re going to save all this money!” to “well we don’t want to reward people for trading territories.”  Which really is not income based since you collect for the income at the end of your round, so you would have already earned that reward.

Argument:

1. Cash on Hand after you collect your income, before you roll dice.
2. Income collected at the end of your turn, before you roll dice.

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Let’s be clear, however.  Switching from a Cash on Hand situation (which is what was voted on twice before we got here) to an Income Only situation is akin to changing when you collect income from at the end of your turn to the start of your turn.  It’s huge!  A massive change and one that was never voted for!

I don’t follow you Jenn, but perhaps that is because I don’t usually play with tech.  Like near never.  R&D happens at the beginning of the turn, that would be when you would logically count the income +NOs.  It would require keeping track of a number to do it from the end of your last turn.  That is what CoH is doing, it is rewarding the ‘paper thin tiger’ as you put it for land grabs.

@JimmyHat:

I don’t like it, you’re shutting out the little guys and then pouring on the options for the agressors who take capitals and get paid plus free tech!

Go back and read the rule.  It’s been fixed already.  Little guys can get 1 die free unless they have been crushed.  Some might even get 2 dice like the big boys.

However, money from capitols was already included - just because I was the only person to think of it and bring it up does not mean it was not always there!  It’s like the first guy who thought of the can-opener.

@Young:

Let’s do this in two parts, the free dice scale with all rolling rules and the tech chart.

I like Jens free dice scale and mantlefans rolling rules, now I would like to discuss the possibility of my 10 tech chart idea.

Wait.  You don’t get it, Young.  If we go to Mantlefan’s way then we have eliminated the only reason we made these changes in the first place - the whole premise was so that smaller nations had a chance at all of getting any technologies.  If it’s only what you earn and only what you had at the start of your round, it will be very simple to plain shut down nations like Russia, Italy, Australia.  We did not want that!  We wanted everyone to have a chance!

I am more in favor of no purchased dice at all than I am in locking nations out of being able to get a technology!

Example:  Italy has 9 IPC at the start of it’s turn.  It liberates Albania and collects 10 IPC at the end of it’s turn.  Why should it not get a free roll?  It’s the allies’ fault for letting them liberate it in the first place!  Put the onus on the defender, not the attacker!

Example:  India has 11 IPC, buys 3 infantry.  It now has 2 IPC saved.  It then collects 8 IPC next round.  Why should they be banned from rolling a technology die?  They earned that die with the blood of their people just like anyone else!

If you need a “fluff” reason:  “They stole the research materials when plundering the territory!”  It’s common practice for the American soldier to search for intelligence and valuables when taking a new piece of land, bunker or clearing the bodies of traps.

@Cmdr:

@mantlefan:

YG clearly didn’t think that changing techs from 6 to 10 and having a player pick 6 for which to roll (a brilliant idea, IMO) was too big a change for the purpose of this thread, or he wouldn’t have posted it. My point is that since there is no fair way to say which ideas are too big and which are small enough, why try to do so?

Yes, but you were the only one to show support for it.  Not to mention, I don’t want to go through the effort of trying to work out 10 technologies that are all balanced, when I already had 6.  Stop lumping more work on me!  I already have to run a tournament, play the game for fun, deal with the holidays coming up and help out here!  Sheesh, give me a break man!  Leave my pet project alone!!!

Seriously, if you think it’s broken to have cash on hand and the only way to fix it is to change to collect income only, then please give us WHY it is broken the way we have it now, but not broken your way.  You seem to be stalling, hoping for someone to give you the answer.  Common man!  Tell us WHY, don’t just demand it be changed without reason!

I gave you 7 reasons it is not broken to keep it as is.  You have given us 0 reasons that it is broken.

Keep in mind, if you successfully argue that it’s broken, I have an argument that it should exclude ALL income that is not from control of territories.  So don’t shoot yourself in the foot by trying to win an argument that probably does not need to be won!

Hold on a sec YG, lets get through this first.  I got some reasons why CoH is inferior to Income.

1. CoH can be adjusted by the player, by saving ipcs.  This cannot be disrupted by your opponents.
2. CoH adds another reward to the nation that captures a captial besides the large ipc infusion.
3. CoH rewards sloppy play and foolish land grabs.
4. CoH doesn’t provide an incentive for all nations to defend the front over defense in depth.  Look especially at France here, but really everywhere.

My proposal for tech

I would like to see tech take effect at the end of the turn as opposed to the beginning right after the role.  Call it ‘reequipping time’ or something.  To be clear, you still R&D at the beginning, and then get the tech at the end.

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

I don’t like it, you’re shutting out the little guys and then pouring on the options for the agressors who take capitals and get paid plus free tech!

Go back and read the rule.  It’s been fixed already.  Little guys can get 1 die free unless they have been crushed.  Some might even get 2 dice like the big boys.

However, money from capitols was already included - just because I was the only person to think of it and bring it up does not mean it was not always there!  It’s like the first guy who thought of the can-opener.

What?

I understand the ‘little guy’ gets 1 free die.  He doesn’t get anymore and he’s extremely lucky to get that one if he does.

I’ll try and see what the second part is about….Money from captials, right.  I don’t get it.  Money from capitals is included in CoH…

EDIT:  really I’m not following you Jenn, I don’t understand what this post of yours is even about.

Jim:

No, the little guy gets NOTHING if you stop them from saving IPC to qualify for their one die.  That’s my biggest beef with the INCOME only rule.

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

I guess after a turn or 10 everyone will have every tech in the game  :|

Let me try to explain this:

1. As it stands now, the little guy can use that one or two IPC they saved because they had nothing realistic to purchase to qualify for a single die roll for technology.  This is literally the only level where saving money makes sense as after the first die, it’s prohibitively expensive to save money.  If it is not prohibitive enough, then we can increase the charts until you are happy no one is saving money, unless it is to qualify for the level 1 die (or you are within like 3-5 IPC of the next rung.)

2. Under the new system proposed by mantlefan, you have to look at what territories you have at the start of your next round to determine what dice you get.  This is going to abuse things like Germany racing a transport down to deny England a second die.  Or Russia suiciding a tank to prevent a German second die.  Small nations are going to get CREAMED just to prevent them from getting a die, EVER.  I’d dedicate 3 transports a loaded carrier, a destroyer and a battleship to making sure India and Australia are permanently prevented from getting a free die for technology - EVER.  It’s too easy to do, keep it under 10 IPC and it gets no die.

If we go with the second system, then we should eliminate ALL income that is not territory related.  That way the little guy can get some payback taking a territory the big guys need for their second or third dice too!

@Cmdr:

Jim:

No, the little guy gets NOTHING if you stop them from saving IPC to qualify for their one die.  That’s my biggest beef with the INCOME only rule.

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

Can’t this be fixed by giving a tech token at the end of X’s turn (based on their income at that moment), to be used at the beginning of X’s next turn?
(this way also no one gets free tech from turn 1)

@special:

@Cmdr:

Jim:

No, the little guy gets NOTHING if you stop them from saving IPC to qualify for their one die.  That’s my biggest beef with the INCOME only rule.

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

Can’t this be fixed by giving a tech token at the end of X’s turn (based on their income at that moment), to be used at the beginning of X’s next turn?
(this way also no one gets free tech from turn 1)

It does not have to be fixed!  All we need to do is NOT CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

I’m good with the following brackets:
1-10 IPC, 1 Die
11-79 IPC, 2 Dice
80-139 IPC, 3 Dice
140-199, 4 Dice
200-259, 5 Dice
260+, 6 Dice

If it means I can save money!  If it means you don’t get penalyzed for playing the game the way it’s always been played.  If it means that the little guy will get a chance at technology.  You know, the three things we demanded when we started technology discussions?

@mantlefan:

@Cmdr:

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

Why should it be all or none? Why should NO’s be lumped in with capital plunder?

Make your argument, quit stalling.

@Cmdr:

If it means I can save money!  If it means you don’t get penalyzed for playing the game the way it’s always been played.  If it means that the little guy will get a chance at technology.  You know, the three things we demanded when we started technology discussions?

But… but…saving is bad!

@Young:

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

It is that way, Grasshopper.

Currently:
Your turn…
Take whatever cash you have (saved + collected) and find out how many free dice you have.
Take whatever dice you purchased during your purchase units phase and add it to your free dice.
Your technologies, if found, take effect now - just before your opponent’s turn.

@mantlefan:

If russia is so desperate that they want to blow 6 IPC’s to prevent one die from Germany, I don’t see why that’s a problem.

The little guy’s extra IPC or two that they would save would NOT move them into the next level  at least as often as it would allow them to move in. Any threshold boundary is going to be a little arbitrary, regardless of whose system is in effect. You are overstating the effect that 1-2 IPC would have, especially since your thresholds are so huge. Sure, 1 IPC could move you from 19 to 20 (or whatever the threshold is) and get you a die, but it could move you from 20-21, 21-22, 22-23…48-49 without changing a thing.

Maybe Russia sees that the only technology left would give Germany a significant advantage that they dont have now, so they blitz a tank to drop Germany from 2 Dice to 1 Die and prevent 17% chance of Germany getting it.