Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

@mantlefan:

@Cmdr:

@Young:

@Cmdr:

I’d go that route if you had to buy 6 dice and picked the technology you wanted.  Since on average it takes 6 dice to get one 6.

So your 6 dice minimum, is only for purchased dice right? Nothing to do with the free dice scale? I know that I won’t be spending $60 for dice, so sure, they can pick their own tech if they buy 6 dice in 1 turn.

Yes.  Maybe the price should by 8 IPC per die (so you blow 48 IPC and you get your technology.)  If you buy dice, this replaces the need to roll your free dice - one can never get two technologies in the same turn - for any reason.

I’d like to make it clear that just because some dice might be bought and others might be free, in my idea they would all be rolled at once dso there is no risk of getting 2 techs.

It is so worded already, mantlefan.  There is no possible way for a nation to get two technologies in the same turn.  I’m also proposing an amendment that India’s income is added to England’s for purposes of determining free dice and purchased dice - as per the two nations, one economy rule already established by Larry.

Yes, the fixed cost is you have to buy 6 dice at 8 IPC and you get the technology of your choice.

Basically, 48 IPC buys you a technology. (We can negotiate the actual price later.)  No luck.  Or you rely on your “free” dice to find you something. (I envision this as your private citizens and college campuses experimenting on their own time with their own money - which is why it’s free and based on income, which represents your productivity.)

@Young:

I’m not really a fan of all that, my suggestion is to keep things simple, free dice if elegible + your choice of purchasing additional dice for $10 each.

Gotta have your capital
Gotta be at war
Can only gain 1 tech per turn
Pick 6 from from a chart of 10, than roll.

That’s the sum of what I will be pushing for.

I also don’t like the 4-6 limit, because it is going to be prohibitive for poorer countries to buy extra research dice.  They may only be able to afford 1 die.  I agree with mantlefan that we shouldn’t have limits for limits sake.  The less we add the better our additions are.

One other factor to consider.  I bet we see tech researched after the fall of a capital.  Flush with ipcs, Germany is best poised to throw ipcs at tech after the fall of France, UK and Russia which would have a big effect on their tech rolls if going by CoH over territorial income + NOs.

@Cmdr:

private citizens and college campuses experimenting on their own time with their own money

I can relate to this.  I should have been a dentist.

What we have now is this:

Free Dice for just about every nation up too (and in some cases including) the round they are going to lose their capitol in.
Purchased Technology for 48 IPC (you don’t buy dice, you just buy a technology and find out which one it is when you roll the d6.)

Personally, I liked the 8 IPC but you had to buy at least 4 dice and no more than 6 dice.  You already get free dice, adding more is a luxury, not a right and these smaller nations don’t have the infrastructure, manpower and/or resources needed to buy dice if they cannot afford more than what they get free - in my mind.  It’s like the United States of America gets Nuclear Bombs in 1944, Iran gets them in 2012.  Difference?  The United States could buy more dice, Iran had to rely on free dice.

Or we can go this route:

Additional Research Dice Rule - an Amendment to Technology

In addition to any free dice your nation may, or may not, receive to develop technologies nations may purchase more dice at 8 IPC each based on the 4:2 Rule - quoted below:

The 4:2 Tech Rule
-The first time you roll for a particular Tech, you MUST purchase a minimum of 4 rolls that turn
-The second time you roll for that Tech, you MUST purchase a minimum of 2 rolls that turn, but you receive the Tech
automatically
-You MAY purchase ALL 6 rolls in ONE turn, and receive the Tech automatically
-In all cases, Tech doesn’t come into effect until the Mobilize Units Phase you receive it.

That is the same way I feel about CHina in Korea.  Its not complicated, lets not make it so.

Keep in mind you PICK your technology under the 4:2 rule.  No randomness about it.

Research and Develop New Technologies Phase

**A nation is permitted to conduct research and develop new weapons provided they are at war and control their own capitols.  China and France may never conduct research of develop weapons, under any circumstances.

The order of play is now:**

• Purchase New Units and Technology Dice Rolls

• Make all Combat Move Declarations

• Conduct Combat

• Perform all Non-Combat Movements

• Place New Units

• Determine Amount of Free Dice (by table located below)

• Roll all Free and Purchased Technology Development Dice simultaniously and determine technologies developed

• Collect Income

**Each nation may have free dice, purchased dice or both free and purchased dice given their position on the board and their willingness to purchase dice.  Free dice are determined by how much money you collected at the end of your previous turn.  Income that counts towards this tally includes:  The sum of all territory values you control + the sum of all national objectives you eanred + up to 5 IPC saved from last round.

Free dice are determined by the following chart:**

• $10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll

• $50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls

• $90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls

• $120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls

• $150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls

• $225 + IPC = 6 Rolls

**Nations may purchase any number of extra dice at $10 IPC per die, however.  A roll of six on a six-sided die represents a successful breakthrough, all failures are lost and there are no “technology tokens.”  No nation may develop more than one weapon system per round regardless how many sixes are rolled on the die.

The following represents the new technology list, the previous lists are discarded.**

Research and Development Chart

Your artillery pieces now support up to two attacking infantry.  Each infantry paired with the artillery, and the artillery piece hits on a 2 or less in combat.

Mechanized Infantry may now blitz in combat, per armored unit rules, they may also be paired with an artillery to attack at 3 or less.

Your fighters attack at a 4 or less, defend at a 5 or less and intercept bombing raids at a 2 or less.

Your fighters and tactical bombers may now move 6 spaces (7 if paired with an airbase.)  Your strategic bombers may now move 8 spaces (9 if paired with an airbase).

Your strategic bombers may now drop up to two regular infantry units (defined as not mechanized infantry) provided the bomber has a legal landing zone after combat is finished.  Bombers may not drop infantry in non-combat movements and both the bomber and the infantry units must attack the same territory together.

Your bombers may now fire two dice, each one hits at a 4 or less.

Your industrial complexes are cheaper to build and repair twice as fast. Major complexes now cost 24 IPC and upgrading from a minor complex to a major complex now costs 12 IPC.  Standard placement restrictions apply.  Each IPC applied to damage on your complexes now repairs two damage markers.  This effect does not apply to Airbases and Naval Bases.

_You receive extra income due to sales of warbonds. Roll 2 six sided dice, take the die with the higher number, add two to the value and that is the amount collected in addition to any other source of income you are entitled to receive.   _5) Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

• Improved Warships
  ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
  ** Submarines now cost 5.
  ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
  ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
  ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
  ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar Your land based anti-aircraft guns (including both moveable guns as well as guns affixed to facilities) now hit on a 2 or less in opening fire.
• Rockets Each of the airbases your nation controls may fire one rocket at an enemy facility or base within 4 spaces of the airbase that is firing the rocket.  Only one rocket per facility or base may be launched.

**Once you have achieved a scientific breakthrough you cannot receive it again.  Should you achieve another breakthrough that you already have earned, reroll your success until you achieve a new technology.

Nations that have all six technologies cannot roll more research dice - neither the free dice, nor the purchased dice.  ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE APPLIED AT THE END OF YOUR TURN (emphasis added for those who did not find it before.)**

The following are sanctioned optional rules.  These rules are optional, you do not have to incorporate them if you do not want too!

The Research and Development Phase is no longer an optional rule.  Instead, players are allowed to choose not to use Research and Development as an official house rule.

Players may also choose to use the optional rule of technology tokens - as per Anniversary rules.

Players may also choose to use the 4:2 rule for purchased dice per the AARe and AA50e rules.__

The above represents all changes made since the last posting - details of technologies have been rewritten to coincide with forum discussion in an effort to make them more readily understood.

Just FYI, the price of technology dice was reset to the originally voted upon price when the original vote took place.

Editted to make it easier to read.

Great checklist, but I did not include it, I expect the player to be able to do this checklist without our needing to tell him to do it.  As for #7, the vote agreed on six technologies, I think it’s best we stay with what the people voted for as much as possible so there are only six technologies, you don’t have to choose from a list.

The checklist did help me to remember to include all the agreed upon conditions (no China, must have capitol, etc.)  So it did help!

@mantlefan:

Research and Development
1. Are you at war? if so, move on to step 2. If not, continue to Purchase and Repair Phase.
2. Check to see if you still own your capital (good idea YG). If yes, then continue to step 3. If not, continue to Purchase and Repair Phase.
3. Add income as determined by the marker on the IPC tracker to the NO income for which you are currently eligible. UK adds income (both NO and normal) from both governments together to determine this value. See where this number falls on chart in step 4.
4. (Numbers below examples, my point now is the framework.)
Between A and B: 0 Rolls
Between C and D: 1 Roll
Between E and F: 2 Rolls
Between G and H: 3 Rolls
Between I and J: 4 Rolls
K+: 5 rolls.
5. Add as many dice as you would like by paying X IPC each. (Point again is to get the framework, numbers can be specified later)
6. Roll dice. If any 6’s are rolled, move on to step 7. If no 6’s are rolled, continue to Purchase and Repair Phase.
7. Pick 6 techs from the chart of 10. If there are less than 6 techs remaining that you have not researched, pick those that remain. Assign each tech a number 1-6. Start with the highest tech on the list. That is 1. The next highest you picked is 2. (etc., etc., until all techs you picked have a number)
8. Roll one die. You get the tech whose number matches the number you rolled. If you roll a number that has no tech assigned to it (because you already have researched 5 or more techs), you may pick your tech from those that remain.

YG, if I missed any of the spirit of your plan lmk so I can edit this. I think it’s a pretty good synthesis of our two.

@mantlefan:

Is that chart for cash on hand or income+ NO income?

All cash.  Saved, NO Income, Treasury Capture Income, Territory Income.

Mantle, that’s great and all, but we already had a voted in system with all the viarables etc in it.  We were just discussing if there should be changes to how dice are purchased.

A final version is posted. (Notice I said “a final version” and not “the final version.”)  I’m sure there will be a few more discussions over the wording here and there, but everything else should now be ironed out.  Price of dice back to the originally established value.  Threshholds for dice back to the originally established values.  Technology can be ignored if the players wish to ignore it.  The technology tree was combined to make them a bit more powerful and negate the “oh hell, I don’t want THAT ONE!” results, as originally agreed.

The only thing we need feedback on are the actual wordings for each of the technologies.  (The combination of what is there was already agreed on, but maybe we don’t like a certain phrase - we want to replace it with another.)

NEUTRAL ARMIES

If a true neutral is attacked, then the side that did not initiate the attack may purchase extra units in the amount of the territory value times the number of rounds before the territory was attacked in the territory.

He already did.  It’s been six technologies since we started the poll to include or exclude technologies.  For almost the entire game - barring something really wierd, you’re pretty much stuck at 3 or less dice per counter - there’s very little hope of getting 120 IPC a round, but if you do, then…and hey!  If you can manage to get 225 IPC a round, then you deserve to get 6 free rolls!  You need to finish off that snot nosed little brat so he “won’t surrender and fight to the last man” faster!

Question:  Per Alpha Rules (and I think OOB, but I don’t have the manual with me, I left it at the school) England shares technology between India and England, they can pool their resources to buy dice.  Should we include this wording (copied directly from the alpha rules posted on Larry’s site) or do we want to force the nation to split. If we force it to split, how do we handle units moving from board to board?  Or should we limit the purchase to London, as London is the official capitol of the British Empire?