Best UK defense for Sealion 3 or 4 collaboration

Craptacular.  Well i had a post typed out but I guess I was too slow cause I got timed out.  So glad we have such impressive protection at this sight, I would be sooooo upset if someone took over my forum account and posted things……(Sarcasm)

Just going to hit the highlights then.

I like the Scotland move for Germ.  They cannot take it safely, and so this response means their in position to hit london next turn from 2 different szs.  You can only take Scotland if the UK player is not prepared.

We need to figure out what to do with the UK fleet.  split them to guard the coast? Take away the bombard and perhaps a few aircraft.  Or put them in sz 104 so they can counter the Germ fleet after the fall of London.

Regardless of a weird German move, if you make a normal German landing on Scotland, is there merit to landing a German AA gun there?

I think it’d be a good idea if it’s done on G3.  The attack and retreat that Jim mentioned a few posts back probably would not get attempted against the Scotland stack if it contained an AA gun.

Right, it just cannot be done against a prepared UK on G2.  Germ cannot defend both fleets and if it tries might find itself out of position to even invade London G3.  Best to wait and increase your trn load to 13.

Thinking about hitting Scotland on G3 -

The fleet is very vulnerable in 111, and can’t afford to split in order to block the 91 fleet.
Therefore we have to hit Gib with Italy on I2, and thus must leave at least 1 TT in range of Gib.
Without the 91 fleet being able to hit 111, UK putting 5 Fig, 1 Tac against the German fleet is too risky for UK to try.
We might want to rethink I1, and maybe UK2 because of this.

I guess I am confused as the the UK2 fleet moves.  the trns need to make for UK to bring their 4 ground units to the capital, but the other ships are not necessarily needed.  There is a big scary Germ fleet off WGerm covered by the luftwaffe and an army of at least 13 inf 8 arm 5 art.  Fleet assets are 2 CA 1 CV and aircraft, this is if Germ took out the UK blocker in sz104 and Italy attacked the blocker in 97.

What about 1 CA in sz110 and 1 CA 1 CV in 109 with the trns?  This would let UK scramble to protect the CA against the Italian aircraft, but would probably end up with too many casualties to make it worthwhile.

If you put 1 CA in 109 and 1 CA 1 CV in 110, then you have the ablative wounds to survive(with scramblers) against the Italians and still block the bombard.

Can we get a break down of the likely UK defense force and German attack force(specifically aircraft)?

––what happens in the middle east?  Is persia captured for its 2inf or left for the Russians due to London’s imminent fall?  Other UK assets play defensive against Italy and hope Italy moves East instead of West to aid in Sealion.

UK nabs Persia Round 1 to get a round 36 IPCs, in order to purchase 8 Inf, 2 Arm on UK2. 
It gets Iraq on Round 2 for the same reason.  And to make Italy’s life just slightly more difficult.

And you’re right, UK fleet movements on UK2 and UK3 are still a bit strange.  That’s sort of what I was talking about it my post as well.  If UK doesn’t try to block on UK2, as it probably shouldn’t, what does it do?
Staying in 91 puts it at risk of losing mobility if Italy takes Gibraltar (not with our current I1 though).
Other places, Germany might be able to strafe the fleet.

If you use the transport by India you can hit Iraq on Round 2 denying it to Italy. (well, denying the free infantry.)

I still like going after Italy, however.  Kill the Tobruk and Ethiopia stacks and sending your fleet out to India to help against Japan.  It may mean London is gone, but since when does London really matter in this game?  Short of England getting lucky in Africa/Middle East and Japan getting snookered by America?

Scotland turn 2 seems like a good risk if you are planning a G3 invasion anyway. If you skip a G2Scotland, you bring 26 land units on G3. If you drop 6 off on G2 (1aagun), they sink your fleet, you lose 2 planes, they likely lose 5. Your 10 transports are safe in 113 due to scramble. Your land units are safe, since air hit your fleet, and land only battle with too many units risks taking out the 5 land units and getting stuck in Scotland. Even with the fleet destroyed the 10 transports plus the 5 land units = 25 land units against London, minus 5 defending UK planes lost.

If they ignore the fleet, you get 6 more land units on G3 then otherwise.

If they attack the 5 land units in Scotland, they risk 1 plane to AA, and risk over hitting as 6 planes should get 3 hits, but if they get 4 and a land unit hits….or if the planes hit 3 times, but the land units hit twice also…5 hits total means whatever hit Scotland is stuck there. Uk has to send at least 3 land units to protect its planes from being hit…so worst case scenario, UK pulls out 3 units to prevent 5 extra Germans. The 2 units gained risks 1 defending plane on average. You still have 26 land units to attack London with at least 2 fewer land units (assumes 2 were hit clearing/attacking Scotland) or if Scotland is ignored, 31 land units.

That many dice rolls always leaves the possibility for disaster and I suspect neither attack will occur.
I’ll drop this discussion at this point, as I’m late to the conversation and I’ve made my point. Styles vary.

Question:
If you are defending UK against a sea lion.

What if German builds 4 transports turn 1 and 10 turn 2….Do they need the standard G1 carrier since its a G3 assault?

G1 carrier is a vestige of the pre-scramble days. Forgive me if thats what you have done, I can not read map files at this point.

@Cmdr:

If you use the transport by India you can hit Iraq on Round 2 denying it to Italy. (well, denying the free infantry.)

I still like going after Italy, however.  Kill the Tobruk and Ethiopia stacks and sending your fleet out to India to help against Japan.  It may mean London is gone, but since when does London really matter in this game?  Short of England getting lucky in Africa/Middle East and Japan getting snookered by America?

Cmon Jen, you know better than that.  The whole point of this exercise is to try and see if London can be held.  :roll:

Alsch brings up a good point tho, UK can take Persia UK1, then Iraq UK2(if they want) this means they can bring the armor in Egypt over to Gibraltar instead of attacking Iraq, and bring him to London in lieu of an inf UK2.  ****

Sorry James, but a few pages we went through the numbers of the split German fleet and the major reasons why it is bad, even if you can successfully defend both fleets.  G2 Scotland seems out with this UK counter, please prove otherwise how those ships survive AND attack london G3.

So, going back over the numbers from memory, we got 24 inf (17 purchased, 4 starting in England, and 3 via trn) 3 arm (1 via trn 2 purchased) 6 total ftrs, a tac and an aa gun.  Is anything missing in UK’s defense?  Any units that can be gleaned from any other fronts?

Jim, can you please provide me with a write up as to how many German aircraft on average would survive G1?  I wonder because in this scenario we are hitting both bb’s, it might be less than the starting 5/5/1.  I think if Germany has suffered any air losses they might be unable to take UK on G3!  Viola!

***EDIT:

If this is indeed the conclusion reached, then I think we need to re-look over I1.  Italy may have to attack Algeria in order to remove 1 inf from def of London.

Question 1:  How important is the Carrier fleet in SZ 98 to the stopping of Germany taking England on G4?

Question 2:  How important is Africa to the stopping of the European Axis powers from winning?

Question 3:  Is it better to crush Italy in Tobruk/Ethiopia with Egyptian and Indian forces, even if it may mean not stacking Gibraltar with a couple of guys?

Question 4:  Will those couple of guys make a significant difference to England’s defense?

Question 5:  Would that fleet make a significant difference in protecting India and preventing it’s fall?

@JamesAleman:

Your 10 transports are safe in 113 due to scramble.

Although it’s very dicey, this is where your plan hits a snag.

UK can hit this with 4 Fighters, and will probably win this.

@JimmyHat:

So, going back over the numbers from memory, we got 24 inf (17 purchased, 4 starting in England, and 3 via trn) 3 arm (1 via trn 2 purchased) 6 total ftrs, a tac and an aa gun.  Is anything missing in UK’s defense?  Any units that can be gleaned from any other fronts?

If this is indeed the conclusion reached, then I think we need to re-look over I1.  Italy may have to attack Algeria in order to remove 1 inf from def of London.

Actually we’re assuming that the TT in 106 survived, and therefore London has 4 Arm, 25 Inf.
Also the TT in 109 went back to canada for its reinforcements; the French in North Africa were not used at all.
If the sub in 106 had won that fight and destroyed the TT, then what you said would apply.  That’s just not what we’re going with in this example.

I would, personally, do that with England.  Yes, I’d lose the carriers I had to build possibily, but still worth it.  Note:  If you lose 2 planes in the attack (and you probably will) you can build one of the carriers off the coast of S. Africa to help India or off the coast of Canada.  So it’s not total waste of cash.

Hmm, that is interesting.
Seems like Germany would be leaving way too much up to luck for us to consider this much more.

And you pointed it out - the only subs that can hit 91 are also the only ones that can hit 110.
To rely on this for even a second, Germany would be forced to devote 2 subs to 91…

Plus those odds are sorta poopy anyway.