@Cmdr:
2) More likely, if England attacks Korea and lands planes in Amur this is an act of war and thus, Japan’s retalliation should not trigger the 12 IPC boon to Russia. I am not 100% on how the rules read, but I believe Japan would attack Amur and only kill the British units, leaving the Russians alone. In which case, presumably, the Japanese would have to retreat to friendly territory or something. I know this is how it works if England declares war on Japan and hides his ships with the American ones (while America is at peace.)
The UK cold never do that. As long as the USSR is neutral in the Pacific theater, no other powers can land planes in their territory.
But this is meant to explain a possible misunderstanding of the rules, and I guess it could work in that regard.
an unprovoked
Wow so basically as long as I can articulate that I was provoked. I get 12 IPC’s.
Nice.
Oh whats that? you left 1 man in Amur, that’s PROVOCATION! I am Justified to attack!
@Cmdr:
- More likely, if England attacks Korea and lands planes in Amur this is an act of war and thus, Japan’s retalliation should not trigger the 12 IPC boon to Russia. I am not 100% on how the rules read, but I believe Japan would attack Amur and only kill the British units, leaving the Russians alone. In which case, presumably, the Japanese would have to retreat to friendly territory or something. I know this is how it works if England declares war on Japan and hides his ships with the American ones (while America is at peace.)
As already noted by Ruanek, the UK or Anzak (or US , for that matter, once at war) cannot land or move units into a russian territory on the Pacific boards until Russia or Japan declare war on each other. Until then, Russian territories remain “neutral” and are restricted similar to other “neutral” spaces.
But to address your other supposition, territories are not the same as Seazones. You CANNOT attack only one nations’ units in a territory and ignore others as you can in a seazone. If you plan to attack a territory that contains units not at war with, you’re absolutely REQUIRED to declare war on the power, even if you’re already at war with other units on that space.
This can only happen very rarely now. If Japan is at war with Russia, I believe the rules are written such that the UK is allowed to move into russian territories even when not at war with Japan. At that point, neither country is “neutral” on that side of the board (the UK is never considered neutral, even if it’s not at war with Japan because it’s already a nation at war with Germany/Italy, and the UK does not have the same “diplomatic” theater breakdown that the USSR has) so they can share spaces. And if Japan plans to attack a russian space with a UK unit, they must declare war on the UK in order to attack that russian space.
an unprovoked
Wow so basically as long as I can articulate that I was provoked. I get 12 IPC’s.
Nice.
Oh whats that? you left 1 man in Amur, that’s PROVOCATION! I am Justified to attack!
It’s not that complicated, why feign outrage by it? Whoever attacks FIRST is unprovoked. Why beat a dead horse, even sarcastically?
Becuase he likes to.
Anyway, yea, I was trying to think of a way to incorporate two nations on the allied side that would provoke Russia while not directly attacking them, as I described, in a way to see how someone might think it was okay for Japan to attack Russia without Russia getting the money. The rest of the comment was more ponderance.
@Cmdr:
Becuase he likes to.
Anyway, yea, I was trying to think of a way to incorporate two nations on the allied side that would provoke Russia while not directly attacking them, as I described, in a way to see how someone might think it was okay for Japan to attack Russia without Russia getting the money. The rest of the comment was more ponderance.
Yeah, there’s pretty much no way around the 12 ipcs. Attacking any russian territory violates it for Japan and attacking any japanese territory (or moving into China - at least I believe it was written that way in Alpha +1) violates it for Russia.
Personally, I see it as VERY bogus that the UK/Anzac could ever move into Russian TTs after Japanese/Russo aggression while not at war Japan, but they currently ARE allowed to (but the 12 ipc bonus has already been met previously). However, it’s SO rare and unlikely that the UK would somehow send a plane to russia without
a) flying over china (DOW on Japan)
b) getting a carrier far enough north prior to J4 to allow a hop space
c) using Kwangtung as the hop space.
None are reasonable, but it is theoretically possible to get a plane there by J3. I personally prefer that the Diplomatic rules should be written to easily address the impossible scenarios as simply and concisely as the common ones. I don’t understand why the UK flying over a Japanese TT (Kwangsi) doesn’t require a DOW as well (why would Japan take offense to flying over but not landing in china, but somehow it’s ok to fly over Japan). but again, somewhat unlikely so alas.
I agree about the UK/ANZAC in Red zones, but I’d go further, to the point that Russia and Japan can NEVER engage in combat with each other…or better, Japan can attack IF Russia fails to have 18 infantry in the states that were Soviet Far East.
What’s the consensus on Japan DOW on Russia late in the game for Germany to pick up next turn when it seizes Moscow?
What’s the consensus on Japan DOW on Russia late in the game for Germany to pick up next turn when it seizes Moscow?
They can’t. The NO is awarded at the beginning of the next turn. Japan attacks russia, allies play, italy plays, germany goes, and only THEN does Russia have an oppotunity to collect the 12.
What’s the consensus on Japan DOW on Russia late in the game for Germany to pick up next turn when it seizes Moscow?
They can’t. The NO is awarded at the beginning of the next turn. Japan attacks russia, allies play, italy plays, germany goes, and only THEN does Russia have an oppotunity to collect the 12.
DUH!!!
@Idi:
What’s the consensus on Japan DOW on Russia late in the game for Germany to pick up next turn when it seizes Moscow?
They can’t. The NO is awarded at the beginning of the next turn. Japan attacks russia, allies play, italy plays, germany goes, and only THEN does Russia have an oppotunity to collect the 12.
DUH!!!
Yup, written exactly that way to prevent that specific exploit. Those sneaky Krauts.
What’s the consensus on Japan DOW on Russia late in the game for Germany to pick up next turn when it seizes Moscow?
They can’t. The NO is awarded at the beginning of the next turn. Japan attacks russia, allies play, italy plays, germany goes, and only THEN does Russia have an oppotunity to collect the 12.
So in other words, Japan has to declare war on Russia 2 turns before Germany captures Moscow to collect the money.
Japan attacks Russia, Germany moves next to Moscow, Russia collects the bonus 12, Japan does something else, then Germany takes Russia and collects the enhanced income Russia has collected.
If Japan waits the whole game to declare war…since Germany does not capture Moscow in the early rounds…then it probably doesn’t matter that much to worry about it. If you are that worried about it, they could change the rule to permit 12 ipcs worth of units to be placed.
To answer the topic of this thread: I do not think the aggressor should pay money. (Reparations are paid by losers after the war) Why? Because I like that the defender gets rewarded as it is currently written.
I would never count on having this money. Honestly, there is a serious problem if Russia cannot spend that 12 IPC on something. Seriously, even if I maxed out my builds somehow and had cash left, I would buy technology rolls, specifically to prevent Germany from getting this money in the first place.
Japan Declares WAR on RUSSIA
Germany Goes.
Russia AT THE START OF THEIR TURN gets an exta 12 IPC’s to spend, and spends it.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Axis to capture that 12 IPC’s.
Japan Declares WAR on RUSSIA
Germany Goes.
Russia AT THE START OF THEIR TURN gets an exta 12 IPC’s to spend, and spends it.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Axis to capture that 12 IPC’s.
This is interesting. We have been playing that the Japanese hand over the cash as soon as they declare war and before any units are moved.
With most people you would be fine doing that. With a few people, you would literally have to stick with the rule and this is a prime example of why these people require the letter of the law, so to speak.
Although, I would agree that:
Number of games = n
As n increases towards infinity
The limit on the number of games that Germany is in position to take Moscow just before Japan declares war on Russia, and Russia or Japan have not yet declared war is zero.
I could be wrong, we do not, yet, have enough data to support my statement, but I leave it to you to disprove my hypothesis.
When the Soviet Union becomes at war with Japan–-Collect 12 IPCs, once, at the beginning of the turn (not round) following a declaration of war by Japan on the Soviet Union.
Right, at the beginning of Russia’s next turn, after the declaration of war by Japan. Not the game round (defined as Germany, Russia, Japan, China, America, England 1, England 2, ANZAC, Italy, France = 1 Round.)
@Cmdr:
Right, at the beginning of Russia’s next turn, after the declaration of war by Japan. Not the game round (defined as Germany, Russia, Japan, China, America, England 1, England 2, ANZAC, Italy, France = 1 Round.)
I have interpreted this as the start of Japans turn. Japan declares war then hand over the cash. Still think this would create a more binding pact if it was 24 IPCs. 12 from the aggressor and 12 from the bank. We will use this as our house rule when we start the first game using Tigermans map.
That is not how the word “turn” from the rule books of past games have been interpreted as. It has, to my knowledge, always been considered a game turn, not a round turn.
England loads a transport on their NCM turn. America moves their transport on their turn. England unloads the transport on their next turn. The word “turn” is used thrice to denote which country is moving units.
Take a look in the rule books, it is easiest to see around the use of foreign national’s transports with your units because you have to wait for your ally to take a turn before you can move your stuff off.
Also, if you look around the table, you see that if everyone has taken a turn, then you have gone a round of the table back to the first person’s turn.
@Cmdr:
Right, at the beginning of Russia’s next turn, after the declaration of war by Japan. Not the game round (defined as Germany, Russia, Japan, China, America, England 1, England 2, ANZAC, Italy, France = 1 Round.)
I have interpreted this as the start of Japans turn. Japan declares war then hand over the cash. Still think this would create a more binding pact if it was 24 IPCs. 12 from the aggressor and 12 from the bank. We will use this as our house rule when we start the first game using Tigermans map.
It wouldn’t be start of Japan’s turn anyway, as Japan’s turn has started as the earliest it can declare war is at the beginning of the combat move phase after purchasing. If it was supposed to mean the next subsequent turn by any player (it’s not) then it would mean the bank paying Russia at the beginning of the China’s turn (again, it’s not).
The rule was specifically worded as it is to make sure Japan CANNOT declare war only to have Germany get the bonus. The original wording in alpha permitted this, and it was quickly revised when people pointed out this exploit.
