Italy a bad design

I’m assuming the 18 Russian inf are just twiddling their thumbs during all this too?  Or did the Japs also manage to kill them, the chinese, india, and anzac all with the negligible aircraft losses they’d need to have to make the Japan/US battle anything close to on equal terms?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

We go around in circles a lot here.  Taking Egypt does not automatically equate to taking all/or most of Africa.  There’s an IC in South Africa that can churn out some units to counterattack the shattered remnants of whatever Italians actually survive the conquest of Egypt.  The Allies as a whole have a vast IPC advantage over the Axis and it seems that the game was balanced so that it’s up to Japan to do 80% of the heavy lifting in order to bridge that gap, with Italy contributing essentially nothing.  Heck, the Brits don’t even need a fleet.  They can just do army buys their first 4 turns, wait for the US to roll into SZ 110 in force, and then just plop down transports and 1-2 punch Normandy using the Americans for cover.

If Italy has taken Egypt, it probably has both NO’s, giving it 30-35 ipc’s. Meanwhile, the UK has less than 27 ipc’s. Italy can build more units for Africa than Britain.

Let America take Normandy. germany can retake it from West Germany.

What do you mean I’m an apologist for the UK? I think you have the wrong word. Apologist means I am apologizing for their crimes by justifying them. I’m not doing that.

OMGZOR!!!  You mean Italy actually having a chance to meet the UK IPC for IPC is unfair???  Italy also has to stand against the 82 IPC USA, AND hold the entire Med Sea, AND hold the whole African continent to maintain the 30+ IPCs…  C’mon!  Germany has to be strong against the UK at game start so Italy has at least a CHANCE of forming some buffer space against the USA and UK.  The UK1 Taranto attack pretty much destroys any Italian chances for clearing the Med for the first few rounds, and its probably at least 3 turns before Italy can rebuild the BB, TRN and CA with its piddly starting income.  By then its Round 4 and Team America World Police is 2 turns away from landing 10 TRNs in S. Italy proper.  Italy NEEDS 2 extra starting subs with its BS and CA to give it a chance against the UK raid.

There’s no way the Italians can fortify Gibraltar/NW Africa to hold against a UK/US attack with only one transport, much less missing half its starting fleet.  Gibraltar is set up in this game even more unfairly than before, with it giving 3 spaces to the sides that hold it (it WILL be the Allies); the US can send units in one turn from its naval base on the East Coast straight to Gibraltar, and from there its only one more turn (3 spaces) to invade EITHER N. OR S. Italy!!!  Even if everything goes perfectly for the first few rounds for Italy, if the Western Allies are determined Italy is already doomed.  (Italy is basically a stall for time anyway, a distraction from the big show over in Russia.)  So the starting UK losses shouldn’t be that bad of thing, and Italy needs all the help it can possibly get.

Umm, I think you’re ignoring the 80 ipc country called Japan

I’m really thinking the Axis are going to be the side needing a bid in this game, and its probably going to go to Italy, just because of this Taranto raid.

It’s not unfair for them to meet or surpass UK. In fact, they do so anyway: By taking Vichy, Bulgaria, Greece, Kenya, Tunisia, and Syria, it has 29 ipc’s with NO’s. UK has 29 as well, due to the loss of Alexandria. Also, Italy may take Paris, if you’re THAT worried about them. It can also activate Iraq unless Russia takes it first

@SgtBlitz:

I’m really thinking the Axis are going to be the side needing a bid in this game, and its probably going to go to Italy, just because of this Taranto raid.

Then at least give the UK a small fleet that can survive in the North Atlantic against uboats and planes. How about this: Miamibeach is willing to test out theories out. You play Allies to show how Italy has no chance, and he’ll play axis to show that they do

Wait, the US has a single destroyer to start, with your expenditure of the UK carrier/DD the Uk is down to possibly 3 boats left on that half of the board.  Germans should have atleast 6 planes left after turn 1.

My guess here is your german player is going balls to the wall against Russia doing a war dec on turn 2.  The german player, a 60+ IPC monster, has only the UK to worry about until turn 4.  Why are they not building an airforce of boat sinking doom?  And how is the US shucking that many men that fast when you would need a 5x5x5 set of transports to do that each turn.  Thats 15 boats!  15x7=105 IPCs, leaving not enough to even defend them from the starting german air.

As far as Japan getting nutty, yeah, they just explode income wise, esp if US is ignoring them.

How about we let this thread die till a battlemap module is released and then see what happens.  No matter what everyone here is playing with a small group of players and that limits how many various strats/options you can see.

@bugoo:

Wait, the US has a single destroyer to start, with your expenditure of the UK carrier/DD the Uk is down to possibly 3 boats left on that half of the board.  Germans should have atleast 6 planes left after turn 1.

My guess here is your german player is going balls to the wall against Russia doing a war dec on turn 2.  The german player, a 60+ IPC monster, has only the UK to worry about until turn 4.  Why are they not building an airforce of boat sinking doom?  And how is the US shucking that many men that fast when you would need a 5x5x5 set of transports to do that each turn.  Thats 15 boats!  15x7=105 IPCs, leaving not enough to even defend them from the starting german air.

As far as Japan getting nutty, yeah, they just explode income wise, esp if US is ignoring them.

How about we let this thread die till a battlemap module is released and then see what happens.  No matter what everyone here is playing with a small group of players and that limits how many various strats/options you can see.

Well, if they’re ignoring Japan, might as well move the San Fran Fleet to the Atlantic to do a KGF vs JTDTM

OK. I got caught up again and it does seems as though most of you guys who say America is right there to do everything keep saying this and mentioning how much stuff they can get there.  While for all this stuff to get there on the timetable you guys suggest they have spent all of their first 3 turns buying in Europe only and forgetting about Japan, and we have all played Pac40.  All of us know if we never bought anything in Pac40 with the US and tried using only her starting forces Japan wins even if balance was perfect.  By neglecting the pacific for that long America really won’t be position for much of and attack until turn 6 at which point Japan will have pushed their way through India and China and Closing in on Africa with some of their units and putting ANZAC in bind.

Now if Germany takes out the allies in the Med and the Allies go with America playing the main force in the Atlantic, Italy will have time to take out Egypt and push into Africa and wait for the Japanese to arrive on scene to take out the minor factory in South Africa.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Well, if they’re ignoring Japan, might as well move the San Fran Fleet to the Atlantic to do a KGF vs JTDTM

This is precisely what the US player has done each game to date. 1 and a half to 2  US turns worth of IPC’s on extra carrier’s/planes to back it up, followed by spending on transports and inf/art/tanks for the rest of the game.

if the USA goes all Europe, then Japan will take Honolulu and the rest of the Pacific and likely Cairo.

Germans DO NOT need Moscow in order for the Axis to achieve 14 VC.

@calvinhobbesliker:

@SgtBlitz:

I’m really thinking the Axis are going to be the side needing a bid in this game, and its probably going to go to Italy, just because of this Taranto raid.

Then at least give the UK a small fleet that can survive in the North Atlantic against uboats and planes. How about this: Miamibeach is willing to test out theories out. You play Allies to show how Italy has no chance, and he’ll play axis to show that they do

Lets go you chickens!!!  Bawk!, Bawk!, Bawk!  Put your play where your mouth is!!!  Me and Calvin as Axis vs who as Allies???

@miamibeach:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@SgtBlitz:

I’m really thinking the Axis are going to be the side needing a bid in this game, and its probably going to go to Italy, just because of this Taranto raid.

Then at least give the UK a small fleet that can survive in the North Atlantic against uboats and planes. How about this: Miamibeach is willing to test out theories out. You play Allies to show how Italy has no chance, and he’ll play axis to show that they do

Lets go you chickens!!!  Bawk!, Bawk!, Bawk!  Put your play where your mouth is!!!  Me and Calvin as Axis vs who as Allies???

Blitz and chompers? Anyway, I’ll need to wait till we have Battlemap since I’m already in a game and I only have 1 board

Who the hell is playing Japan that the US is emptying the pacific and Japan is unable to help the Euro axis?

Italy will need german help to be some kind of a pain in the a**

The problem is Germany do not have access to the med……

If Germany take Southern France and put a minor ic, it can help Italy to survive in the med and maybe land some afrika korps in africa.

Let Italy take Paris is a good point, very good but its only a balancing issue in the pact of steel, i mean Italy will be ok to survive and fight, but Germany will suffer from this. Maybe its not critical for germany but…you know what i mean.

Anyway, Italy is a big boy, without navy, Italy is still a pain, with lets say : Yougoslavia, Greece, southern France and maybe Bulgaria ( if germany has no plan to put a ic there) Italy can protect Europe and put a expeditionary force into russia to kill some ruskies and find a way for the german army to press the attack.

I know that the States are some really big troubles comin in, but if you let go Germany and Japan, focusing on Italy, you will loose some prescious time getting them to theirs knees.

Its my opinion

@Napoleon:

Italy will need german help to be some kind of a pain in the a**

The problem is Germany do not have access to the med……

If Germany take Southern France and put a minor ic, it can help Italy to survive in the med and maybe land some afrika korps in africa.

Let Italy take Paris is a good point, very good but its only a balancing issue in the pact of steel, i mean Italy will be ok to survive and fight, but Germany will suffer from this. Maybe its not critical for germany but…you know what i mean.

Anyway, Italy is a big boy, without navy, Italy is still a pain, with lets say : Yougoslavia, Greece, southern France and maybe Bulgaria ( if germany has no plan to put a ic there) Italy can protect Europe and put a expeditionary force into russia to kill some ruskies and find a way for the german army to press the attack.

I know that the States are some really big troubles comin in, but if you let go Germany and Japan, focusing on Italy, you will loose some prescious time getting them to theirs knees.

Its my opinion

Bulgaria is only 1 ipc, so you can’t build an IC there

Japan does help the European Axis in the form of bringing the pain to Moscow.  I’ve never argued that the game as a whole is fundamentally imbalanced, just that it’s most efficient for all sides to play the same old tired strats.

I played a lot of 1942 and that was mostly kill germany first vs kill russia first and then someone conceded with a few exceptions.  That is how I have tried to play my first game as the axis but I am starting to think that it is better to not even try to take Moscow.  The victory conditions for the axis is getting cities and it might be better to use Japan to conquer every city on the pacific side if america goes kill germany/italy first.  Then have Japan take all of Africa and send Germany to take lenigrad and stalingrad.  If Russia bought too much inf they will not be able to counter attack.  I have not added the cities up but at that point the axis would at least be pretty close.

So maybe that is something that I am missing.

Also not to confuse anyone I am Chompers#2, my old roomate who I have played 4 times is Chompers, who has made most of the post on here so far.

@Chompers#2:

I played a lot of 1942 and that was mostly kill germany first vs kill russia first and then someone conceded with a few exceptions.  That is how I have tried to play my first game as the axis but I am starting to think that it is better to not even try to take Moscow.  The victory conditions for the axis is getting cities and it might be better to use Japan to conquer every city on the pacific side if america goes kill germany/italy first.  Then have Japan take all of Africa and send Germany to take lenigrad and stalingrad.  If Russia bought too much inf they will not be able to counter attack.  I have not added the cities up but at that point the axis would at least be pretty close.

So maybe that is something that I am missing.

Also not to confuse anyone I am Chompers#2, my old roomate who I have played 4 times is Chompers, who has made most of the post on here so far.

I was about to ask if you two were the same person, and then you answered my question. :-D

Axis need 14 out of 19 VC’s right? If they don’t take London or any North American territory, they need Moscow. If you forego Moscow, japan will need to take WUS and hold it for a turn.

Meant Romania so the fact is about the free infantry

Yeah, he makes up for lack of creativity in choosing forum names by a good bit of it on the game board  :-D