UK1 @ SZ 95 scenario question

@miamibeach:

What I want to know is why any UK player would prefer to go after the Italian fleet rather than try to save Britain from Sea Lion???  What German player worth his salt would not prepare for Sea Lion on the first turn???  Yes, the UK can defeat that Italian fleet, the Italians will take Egypt(primary objective secure), the rest of the Italian fleet gets sunk, Germany gets about 29 IPC’s on turn 2(invasion turn) in addition to the 17 from France turn one, and UK can no long build anything.  France is gone turn one, and Germany gets one turn to prepare for USSR using its, France, and UK’s IPC’s.  Let the Italians play, get the French fleet out if you can.  Just try to save Britain, PLEASE!  Why is this so hard for people at this site to figure out???  Why the target fixation on the Italians?  I dont get it.

Because that carrier is better used to keep the Italians from dominating the Med.  UK cannot afford to produce ships AND land assests to defend against a sea lion, and grouping all your remaining ships up so that they can be scuttled by the Luftwafte isn’t really a great plan either!

As it stands the UK attack on SZ95 is a no-brainer in terms of weaking the italians position in the med, hopefully long enough that Britain can reinforce Egypt with units from India, preventing critical lose of IPCs to the Axis while your continuing to build land units in the UK proper.

Not sure how it may turn out delaying Italy one turn at sz95

If the UK takes out the first Italian fleet, it may not be able to rebuild ships off of the UK safely or prevent Sea lion with only 29 main ipcs.  
Italy could build one DD to block the French or attack the French fleet or the remaining UK in the Med. with fig.

Germany will be a strong counter the next turn and the UK may not have any navy left.  one or two German TR might be enough of a Sea lion threat to prevent the UK from attacking the Italian fleet.

If the Uk can be protected, then Moving the CV and other ships protect the French Fleet in sz 93 might be the better risk.  French fleet could leave on its turn and then the UK on its turn before Italy moves again

@oztea:

Why, in the name of all that is holy, are you bringing the carrier into the attack.

If you take hits….put them on the destroyer and cruiser so you have no surface commitment to that SZ.

Noncombat move your carrier to the french fleets position and reload it with fighters if neccisary.

Easy.

The carrier take two hits like a BB.

Gives you time to score hits on enemy capital ships.

By the way… This carrier ist german sub-fodder. :-D

If you take the CV/TAC/DD and go after the Italians, Sea Lion takes out UK.  Does that sound like a good trade to you?  If that does, then I would be bored playing you in AA since I would kick you butt every game.

It all depends on the how the Germans built, attacked and rolled on G1. There are situations where you can spare the CV in the med (and sometimes even the DD) and in these cases i think you should take out the Italian BB, CA and TRS). The Italians should not be allowed to keep 2 TRS the first turn if it can be avoided as they will overwhelm Africa if they do. I think that we will see planes from India arriving in Africa quite often. Sinking a TRS and reinforcing with planes from India (witch can be used to destroy the Italians in East Africa) might make it possible to hold on to Egypt until reinforcements from South Africa and India (allining Persia and taking over Iraq on the way) arrives.

The German player would be dumb if he did’nt build at least a CV and a TRS(plus either another TRS or SUB).  Then wipe out everything on UK with 3FTR’s/3TAC/1BOMB.  If after all that, the UK goes after the Italian fleet in SZ95, the Axis players are high-fiveing each other.  I’ll trade the Italian fleet for UK and Egypt anyday.  UK cannot hold Egypt…but lets say the UK can…I’d still trade UK for the Italian fleet.  If you remove FTR’s from India, Japan takes India quicker and easier…and sends some of its own 28+ aircraft to Africa/Europe.  Keeping UK alive is far more important than sinking the Italian fleet.  Attacking SZ95 is a good tactic if you are playing your little sister.

Lets say the German builds an AC and 2 TRS and kills your entire fleet in the North Atlantic. He now has his entire fleet in SZ 112. How do you plan to use your AC and DD off Gibraltar to stop the German attack? Do you attack the German fleet with everything you have? It has a less then 20 % that you will kill the transports, the German has capital ships and are positioned next to a naval base. That attack is madness. Do you build fleet and place it in 110? The German can go round that fleet and attack the UK from 109 and he is also strong enough to kill your fleet and invade an England that is hardly defended. The only way to defend against a Sea Lion G2 if the German positioned themselfs in this way is to build all inf in England. In this case the German will most likely invade and either start gearing against the Russians or build a shitload of transports so he can invade in G3. If he does not invade you dont want a carrier and a destroyer within three squares from sz 112 as the German fleet does not have much to do but killing it. Im quite sure its of better used killing the Italian main fleet.

Bringing planes from India makes India weaker but not that much. If 2 planes leave and India gets the extra inf from west india i do not think it will do that much of a diffrence. Those two planes can make a huge contribution in Africa.

@Dany:

Lets say the German builds an AC and 2 TRS and kills your entire fleet in the North Atlantic. He now has his entire fleet in SZ 112. How do you plan to use your AC and DD off Gibraltar to stop the German attack? Do you attack the German fleet with everything you have? It has a less then 20 % that you will kill the transports, the German has capital ships and are positioned next to a naval base. That attack is madness. Do you build fleet and place it in 110? The German can go round that fleet and attack the UK from 109 and he is also strong enough to kill your fleet and invade an England that is hardly defended. The only way to defend against a Sea Lion G2 if the German positioned themselfs in this way is to build all inf in England. In this case the German will most likely invade and either start gearing against the Russians or build a shitload of transports so he can invade in G3. If he does not invade you dont want a carrier and a destroyer within three squares from sz 112 as the German fleet does not have much to do but killing it. Im quite sure its of better used killing the Italian main fleet.

Bringing planes from India makes India weaker but not that much. If 2 planes leave and India gets the extra inf from west india i do not think it will do that much of a diffrence. Those two planes can make a huge contribution in Africa.

If the Germans build a AC and 2 TRNs in SZ 112 then I build 9 inf in UK and transport another inf and tank from Canada over to UK, plus the 2 inf and 3 ftrs that are already there.  Considering I have AA that will shoot down 1 maybe even 2 German aircraft…I hope the Germans try a G2 Sealion.  I could also land the TAC in U.K. for extra security.  I don’t believe a G2 Sealion is viable against a competent UK player.

@panzerjager:

@Dany:

Lets say the German builds an AC and 2 TRS and kills your entire fleet in the North Atlantic. He now has his entire fleet in SZ 112. How do you plan to use your AC and DD off Gibraltar to stop the German attack? Do you attack the German fleet with everything you have? It has a less then 20 % that you will kill the transports, the German has capital ships and are positioned next to a naval base. That attack is madness. Do you build fleet and place it in 110? The German can go round that fleet and attack the UK from 109 and he is also strong enough to kill your fleet and invade an England that is hardly defended. The only way to defend against a Sea Lion G2 if the German positioned themselfs in this way is to build all inf in England. In this case the German will most likely invade and either start gearing against the Russians or build a shitload of transports so he can invade in G3. If he does not invade you dont want a carrier and a destroyer within three squares from sz 112 as the German fleet does not have much to do but killing it. Im quite sure its of better used killing the Italian main fleet.

Bringing planes from India makes India weaker but not that much. If 2 planes leave and India gets the extra inf from west india i do not think it will do that much of a diffrence. Those two planes can make a huge contribution in Africa.

If the Germans build a AC and 2 TRNs in SZ 112 then I build 9 inf in UK and transport another inf and tank from Canada over to UK, plus the 2 inf and 3 ftrs that are already there.  Considering I have AA that will shoot down 1 maybe even 2 German aircraft…I hope the Germans try a G2 Sealion.  I could also land the TAC in U.K. for extra security.  I don’t believe a G2 Sealion is viable against a competent UK player.

I agree, my point is that the CV is not whats going to save the UK and therefore it can be used in the med. The problem is not the G2 Sea Lion but the G3 Sea Lion. Anyway the CV wont help here either.

On another note i think that if the German is serious about a Sea Lion he would make sure to take out the Canadian TRS. The TRS and DD in 109 in less of a problem for them.

Turn 1(UK)…attack German fleet in SZ112:
Germany= 1CV(2FTR’s), 1BB(damaged?), 1CA, 1SUB, 3TRS.[4,4,4,3,2,2].  
vs
UK= 1CV(1TAC), 2BB’s, 2CA’s, 1DD.[4,4,3,3,3,2]

How is that 20%???  Looks like 50% to me.

Yes, UK builds 9INF.  Is that enough vs 3INF/3ARM/1BB/1Bomber/2FTRs?  Why would you take that chance to lose UK?  Hit the German fleet with the entire UK fleet…at the very least Germany will have 2 less FTR’s in the attack on UK.  Its the only chance UK has vs Sea Lion.

The 2 extra FTR’s are not enough to stop Italy from taking Egypt on turn two.  The 2nd Italian fleet with TRS(1INF/1ARM) will invade Transjordan, the two Italian FTR’s in Italy move to N. Africa.  The only way to stop Italy from taking Egypt on turn two is to not lose the UK TAC/FTR(originally from Egypt) in the naval battles, and send them all including FTR’s from India into Egypt.  In which case the Italians wait one extra turn…on turn two align Iraq, take out Sudan and get about 5-6 more INF into the battle on turn 3.

If you go with your Med strategy as UK, then in the mean time Japan is salivating over an easy India, and Sea Lion may have taken out UK.  The UK cant build any more units, the Germans can use their Sea Lion TRS vs the Russians, and have about 17(France)+29(UK)=46 extra IPC’s to build for Russia.  Not to mention the 46(at least) economy Germany now has.  A very depressing game for the Allies.

I did not bother to mention the 2SUBS taking out the DD/TRS in 106, and the 2SUBS taking out the DD/TRS in 109 because I see that as obvious…so no transport of anything from Canada.  The 2INF and 3FTR’s in UK are killed on turn 1 by the German 3FTR’s/3TAC/1BOMBER(I think I mentioned that several times)…should lose only 1 FTR to AA.  There will only be 9INF in UK when Sea Lion happens.  G3 Sea Lion is probably not possible with a competent UK player.

Why do you think that UK will have 2 BB’s and 1 CA’s left after G1?

Sorry, 2BB’s, 1 CA, 1DD.

My G1 attacks would be

SZ 112: BB, CA, 1 plane, 1 sub
SZ 111: 2 subs, 3 planes
SZ 110: 1 sub, 4 planes
SZ 106: 1 sub (hope for the best)

I would never strike the UK in G1. This might lose me a plane or two but ill rather loose them killing a BB then a fig. The likely attack then is: 3 figs, 1 tac, 2 dd (4,3,3,3,2,2) against 1 bb, 1 cv, 2 fig and 1 ca (4,4,4,3,2) the diffrance is that the German can soak 2 hits before it starts taking dmg, hits they will have no problem taking as they are next to a naval base.

Aren’t you using any planes against France?

Not if i was going for a Sealion. If i was going for Russia i might to keep a few more land units in the battle of France.

I see I made a typo too, I meant to ask, why do you think UK has 2 BB’s and 2 CA’s left after G1?

Now, you state that UK will still attack with 2 BB’s, 1 CA, 1 DD…… They won’t have so much left after G1 either.

If the Luftwaffe and the U-boats do their work properly, you have 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD, 1 tactical and 1 CV to counter the German SZ 112 fleet making it (4,3,3,2,0) against (4,4,4,3,2,1). Now how are those odds?? Attacking that is playing like my son of 18 months.

Plus you forget that by placing the CV with the French in SZ93 you can shuttle the Egyptian fighter + the tactical you start with to UK on turn 2 to defend against a turn 3 Sea Lion (of course they have to survive the attack against the Italian BB-fleet).

Planes against France are not needed.

As Germany if you do not get rid of the 3 UK FTR’s in UK on turn 1, then there will be no Sea Lion.

With your attack, Uk will have 3 FTR’s, 2 INF, plus 50/50 1 INF and 1 ARM from Quebec, plus 9 INF it builds in UK=12INF, 3FTR’s defending Sea Lion…possibly add an extra INF and ARM.  Assuming you built 2 TRS with Germany…giving you 3 total you can have: 3INF, 3ARM, BB, probably 5 aircraft(minus 1 from your SZ110 attack, and minus one from AA when you make the attack on UK.

Round 1:
UK:  12INF at 2, 3FTR’s at 4(lets say no TRS from Quebec)…should be 6 hits vs Germany(3INF, 2ARM, 1FTR).
vs
Germany: 3INF at 1, 3ARM at 3, 1BB at 4(once), 1 Bomber, 2 TAC’s, 2 FTR’s…should be about 6 hits(just short, but I’ll give it to you(UK loses 6 INF).

Round2:
UK:  6INF at 2, 3 FTR’s at 4…should be 4 hits(all German air gone if you want to take UK).
vs
Germany:  1ARM at 3, 1Bomber at 4, 1TAC at 4, 1 TAC at 3, 1FTR at 3…should be about 3 hits(UK loses 3 INF)

Round3:

UK:  3INF at 2, 3 FTR’s at 4…should be 3 hits(Last German unit gone, Sea Lion fails)
vs
Germany 1ARM at 3…maybe UK loses 1INF.

Sea Lion fails, and thats without your 50/50 attack on the DD/TRS off of Quebec.  Not good.

I’m not suggesting attacking the German fleet without the CV/TAC and DD from Gibraltar…they are key in that attack.

I would never do a Sea Lion turn 3 as Germany…thats what Dani is suggesting.

My attack on the German fleet is: 2BB, 1CA, 2DD, 1TAC, 1CV(4,4,3,3,2,2,0)
vs
1BB, 1CA, 1CV, 2FTR, 1SUB(4,4,4,3,2,2)

UK has 3 soak-offs, Germany 2.  50/50 battle from my perspective…this is why I would consider building a SUB rather than an extra TRS as Germany…which would make Sea Lion tougher since as Germany I would have 2 less ground units vs the 9 UK INF.

@miamibeach:

Turn 1(UK)…attack German fleet in SZ112:
Germany= 1CV(2FTR’s), 1BB(damaged?), 1CA, 1SUB, 3TRS.[4,4,4,3,2,2].  
vs
UK= 1CV(1TAC), 2BB’s, 2CA’s, 1DD.[4,4,3,3,3,2]

How is that 20%???  Looks like 50% to me.

Germany should never let its fleet get attacked. If Denmark is axis, then the UK ships cant reach it.