Good question (sadly, I don’t have answers though, I just wanted to support you).
AAE40 G2-3 Sealion Strategy!!!
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What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
Man! This is crap!
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What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
Man! This is crap!
I can imagine you saying
"Ah Snap! :x "
:-D -
@Dylan:
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
Man! This is crap!
I can imagine you saying
"Ah Snap! :x "
:-DNan, “Snap” isn’t so much in my typical list of expressions. I am more the: “Awww MAN! Dang it! :x” type.
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Certainly the idea of pulling off Sea Lion has a sort of romantic flair. However, it is also something that bothers me from a realism and balance perspective.
In terms of realism, my understanding is that in 1940 British home fleet (not to mention the entire navy) assets were at something like a 10 to 1 advantage over the entire Germany surface fleet. As for U-Boats, while they were a crucial economic weapon, they were of limited value against large surface formations. The whole idea that Germany can sink most of the British navy round 1 seems rather absurd. Then there is the RAF. German planners felt that Sea Lion had no chance unless air superiority could be achieved over the channel. That was not something they had, nor were they ever able to achieve it despite some effort. It would have required sustained effort to have had even a chance. Definitely not round 1 and done. Finally, they did not have the means to transport and keep in supply the number of troops and equipment necessary for an amphibious invasion. They had no landing craft, for example, and would need to rely on river barges.
For all of these reasons, and others, Sea Lion was shelved to the relief of the generals, who thought they could easily lose badly.
As to balance, only time and a number of games will tell. However, it seems Britain already has its hands full in the Pacific and Africa in this game. A credible (or should I say INcredible) threat of successful German invasion that forces them into an all infantry to London build seems an unreasonable hindrance to the Allied effort. I can see making the British fleet under-represented to keep them off Germany for a while as a game mechanic. However, 1 British and 1 French infantry in UK does not seem at all realistic or balanced. I agree with the suggestion that adding a few (either nation) would probably be a good solution.
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What about German paratroops eliminating the need for transports? :?
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What about German paratroops eliminating the need for transports? :?
Excellent point. Just need to be within 3 spaces of an airbase, correct?
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I agree with BlueIguana on most of what he wrote.
Even the surface combat fleet was an economic raiding tool, rather than any assistance for Sea Lion.
Back in the 70’s the British war college or something like that wargamed it out. In the wargame, the Germans were able to make the landings, but the Royal Navy was able to eventually cut off the landings, which isolated the Germans, game over. I dont think you can say the attempt and landings were impossible.
Here are some if’s for a possible Sea Lion: If the Germans had captured the 340,000 Allied troops at Dunkirk, and the Luftwaffe had concentrated their air power only over the Channel and a little past the British beaches, knock out the radar antenna’s daily instead of going far interior, make the landings in July, there might have been a chance. My biggest problem at this point is supply…would the royal navy have broken into a heavily mined English Channel, and how long would that have taken? Would the Luftwaffe done a number on the Royal Navy?..their showing at Dunkirk was disapointing from that view and question. The lack of landing craft and the lack of appropriate kinds of aircraft(longer range FTR’s, and a very large number of Condor’s) make Sea Lion even ify’er.
From a AA standpoint I think a Sea Lion should be a possibility since you should not be saddled with the poor planning of Hitler, and then there is the ‘fun factor’ for the game itself.
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Agreed. Absolutely, the fun factor is the most important thing. I definitely prefer an enjoyable, close game where every player has a chance to come out on the winning side to a historical re-enactment masquerading as a game.
My only concern is making sure the UK player gets to have some fun too. So far, UK Pacific fleet gets crushed by Japan round 1. UK Atlantic fleet gets sunk by Germany round 1. By round three or four India falls to Japan. Meanwhile the Italians have Egypt and are romping through the middle of Africa because all UK can do is stack London and hope to, but probably not, survive Sea Lion.
Not much to smile about or enjoy if I am playing UK….
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There may be an exception to Americans helping England because Roosevelt, even though not at war, encouraged citizens to go to Britain to help out the British. This allowed America to help and stay neutral. This being said a G1 Sea-lion would be the only feasible option because the British tac bomber can land from Gibraltar the bombers from central America could fly over to add fodder and the Canadians can add a tank and a guy. even without America the British could still do just a normal buy and group their boats to block or destroy the German fleet. I do not see Sea Lion happening unless the English player is terrible or Germany is incredibly lucky
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I’m calculating a 75% chance of winning the RAF battle in England if you send in the entire airforce (3 fig 3 tac and 1 bomber), with an average of 2 units left over… ouch. Yeah, basic mutual annihilation, and this is if you get even odds with the initial AA roll. I’m guessing the German player would like to keep at least one fighter to land on the carrier, with the other fighter from Norway landing in SZ 112. The other unit that survives could either be the bomber or a tac.
With the scenario proposed by BlueIguana with the remainder of the German fleet, however, it looks like the best Germany can clear out of the Atlantic is the two cruisers in SZ 112, the destroyer trans combo in SZ 109 and one of the battleship cruiser or destroyer sets in SZ 110 or 111. That leaves a sizeable portion to make a blocking force in the Channel, 1 bs 1 cru or 1 dd 1 ac and 1 tac. 29 UK IPCs on UK1 can add 3 dd to this blockade. OR Britain could attack SZ 112 with this, 1 bb 1 cru or 1 dd and 1 tac… Ok, the UK probably won’t go offensive against a German loaded carrier/bs combo. I’m thinking the UK will go defensive with this fleet. If Britain can build enough naval units in the Channel SZ they don’t have to worry about building land units in England.
What does Germany have left on G2 to pound this with? With its G1 buy if Germany is trying Sealion a carrier is a must, that’s 16 IPCs, 14 left could either buy 2 transports or 1 dd and 1 sub. If Germany builds the 2 trans the most it has to go offensive with is 1 bb 1 cru 2 ss (from surrounding SZs, maybe, if any have survived from UK1) 2 fig 1 tac against UK’s 1 bb 1 cru or 3/4 dd 1 ac and 1 tac. Calculating these odds, ugh… 63% chance of victory, IF all these preconditions are met, with MAYBE one unit left over… The three loaded transports would have to come in with this attack and kill the Canadian UK units (1 inf and 1 tank) landed on UK1, which should be over fairly easily. But you’d be fighting against the odds for this one. It might be better to try…
Additional G2 Strategy with 3 transports in SZ 112 … INVADE SCOTLAND!!!: Why not sacrifice the 3 transports and land 6 land units in Scotland G2? Once you’ve landed your troops, the transport’s work is done. This way you’d have 6 land units bordering England which only has a tank and inf for defense. This way you’d force England to build some land units for defense UK2, leave its fleet perilously weak in the Channel, plus Germany’s G2 monster +17 France’s and NOs IPC God-build ensures that you can build more transports and naval units in SZ 112 to ensure victory!!!
To even the odds a bit in this G2 naval battle, if Germany builds 1 dd and 1 sub into SZ 112 instead of the 2 trans on G1, the battle with the surviving British fleet becomes a little easier… 1 bb 1 cru 3 ss 1 dd 2 fig 1 tac against UK’s 1 bb 1 cru or 3/4 dd 1 ac and 1 tac defending the Channel. This battle could be easily won with 95% odds of success with about 5 units remaining. One loaded transport invading Britain against the Canadian 1 inf and 1 tank would have 75% odds if a fighter was detached from the naval battle to finish off Britain. Seems like pretty good odds, even with a one trans invasion.
I’m even thinking Germany’s best strategy may be building 1 carrier, 1 trans and 1 sub G1 to take care of UK1 either/or possibilities in terms of reinforcing its fleet in SZ 110 or building all inf. Would sorta cover both fronts, and force Britain to go either all-in on one with naval or land or half-as#ed on both.
Anyway, Germany makes so much money for a G2 build from France’s fall that building a follow-up invasion fleet on G2 should be cake for finishing off whatever British naval units are left around Britain, if a determined German player wishes to try a Sealion. I’d worry about the USA and Russia G3, but at least you’d have a decent shot at taking England with this strat.
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G1: Build major IC in Netherlands-Belgium. Take France.
G2: Build all transports and mass all units in Netherlands-Belgium.
G3: Build major IC in Norway. Attack UK with everything.
G4+: If Russia attacks, use navy to advantage and hold in Europe while attacking through north. Russian Army may be cut off and destroyed, or bypassed and go straight for Moscow after Leningrad falls. Build Tanks in Leningrad and Mech infantry in Norway.
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G1: Build major IC in Netherlands-Belgium. Take France.
G2: Build all transports and mass all units in Netherlands-Belgium.
G3: Build major IC in Norway. Attack UK with everything.
G4+: If Russia attacks, use navy to advantage and hold in Europe while attacking through north. Russian Army may be cut off and destroyed, or bypassed and go straight for Moscow after Leningrad falls. Build Tanks in Leningrad and Mech infantry in Norway.
Are you planning for the Allied player to be a moron?
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G1: Build major IC in Netherlands-Belgium. Take France.
G2: Build all transports and mass all units in Netherlands-Belgium.
G3: Build major IC in Norway. Attack UK with everything.
G4+: If Russia attacks, use navy to advantage and hold in Europe while attacking through north. Russian Army may be cut off and destroyed, or bypassed and go straight for Moscow after Leningrad falls. Build Tanks in Leningrad and Mech infantry in Norway.
I think you need to put at least one aircraft carrier in there somewhere to have your fleet of transports last more than 1 turn. Also, you’re turning 60 IPCs into factories that probably should be put into units at some point.
You might be onto something with Belgium building a major IC, but you’d definitely have to rebuild your starting German fleet from scratch since it’s not lasting more than 1 turn without a carrier for protection. By then the UK would have the upper hand in naval units.
Hell, what am I saying? LOL, you kids, you think everything can be summed up in a few brief sentences anyway.
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Agreed. Absolutely, the fun factor is the most important thing. I definitely prefer an enjoyable, close game where every player has a chance to come out on the winning side to a historical re-enactment masquerading as a game.
My only concern is making sure the UK player gets to have some fun too. So far, UK Pacific fleet gets crushed by Japan round 1. UK Atlantic fleet gets sunk by Germany round 1. By round three or four India falls to Japan. Meanwhile the Italians have Egypt and are romping through the middle of Africa because all UK can do is stack London and hope to, but probably not, survive Sea Lion.
Not much to smile about or enjoy if I am playing UK….
Aw, man, c’mon, what could be MORE fun than having a Russian + US standard opening counter to a German Sealion bid? Germany will be forced to make some very scripted moves that don’t have a lot of leeway to take Britain; plus a lot of its opening money will be sunk into transports that will need a navy to be protected for later use. The United States could be spending its 35 Global “peace-time” IPCs making a take-back fleet that will be in position to retake Britain US3 or 4. 35 IPCs is definitely a carrier a turn on the East coast, throw in some planes and a German Sealion on G3 will seem even more dicey. Germany will probably be forced to spend more on his navy than he would like to just maintain British occupation.
Russia even has a damn battleship to start with; imagine a Russian naval build for the first 3 rounds sailing out of the Baltic on Germany’s eastern flank! Hitler would be crapping his pants! It’s going to be bad enough with the ground units in place on the Russian border; 3 turns of moving infantry into position is going to make some nice looking stacks, plus 3 turns of tanks backing it up. I’m not going to enjoy a “full-powered” version of Russia after a successful Sealion; even with Britain’s looted IPCs its going to be tough.
I’m betting with the Round 3 neutrality rules America’s “peace-time” money builds will either be able to save Britain or India, but probably not both.
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Are you planning for the Allied player to be a moron?
That’s always worked out all right for me. :-D
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On G1 you can smash all the UK boats around england with air+subs if you don’t mind taking a few extra losses in France, and why not do it? Now this is assuming a europe game instead of pacific, but G can easily meet the US’s income by eating neutrals and France. Add to that the Italians beating on the UK, plus the convoy zones, and the distance from russian factories, and I think you could atleast starve out the UK as a viable strat.
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Sgt Blitz, from what I read of your strategies is that for Sea Lion you want to attack the RAF on G1 with 7 planes. That leaves you one fighter and 5 subs to attack the UK fleets with. How do you divide these units to kill off the 2 CA’s, the BB + CA and the DD + Trn, leaving UK with only one BB and DD around their home island?
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G1: Build major IC in Netherlands-Belgium. Take France.
G2: Build all transports and mass all units in Netherlands-Belgium.
G3: Build major IC in Norway. Attack UK with everything.
G4+: If Russia attacks, use navy to advantage and hold in Europe while attacking through north. Russian Army may be cut off and destroyed, or bypassed and go straight for Moscow after Leningrad falls. Build Tanks in Leningrad and Mech infantry in Norway.
scratch that. west Germany boarders zone 112.
G1 Attack into 112 w/ fleet. build 4 transports in 112.
G2: Attack
Are you planning for the Allied player to be a moron?
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but USSR and Germany have around the same amount of IPCs every turn (depending of course on the NOs).
Germany: 30 at start+9 (at best) from France (6 of these at best on G1)+2 from Finland+2 from Yugoslavia (let’s say they take it). And a one time 17 IPCs bonus.Over 3 turns, they have 30+40+17+43=130 IPCs
USSR: 39 IPCs every turn, which makes 117 IPCs
But every russian production is going to Berlin, which means, in my idea, that Germany is actually at an economic disadvantage against Russia. Plus, Germany is the attacking power, so the more it advances the easier for Russian drunk footmen to reach its armies.
Imagine if you build transports and CVs to attack UK. Maybe you could take it, but you will then look desperately at the russian juggernaught coming for your women.
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Imagine if you build transports and CVs to attack UK. Maybe you could take it, but you will then look desperately at the russian juggernaught coming for your women.
Yeah look out… Ivan is coming for your women… and your precious metals. My ideas exactly.
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