your additional g1 strategy for killing raf forgot the glorious french inf at england, so there are 2 inf to saok up hits :P
I dont think 1 INF is that big of a deal, but if the UK at start forces are adjusted to make a Sea Lion less likely, perhaps adding a couple-three more French INF would be the way to do it, and give the French a bit more to work with.
Yeah, I bet that the Allies are going to need a bid specifically because of this weak spot the UK has at the beginning. 2 inf (1 brit, 1 french) aren’t enough to protect the RAF.
After studying the map and the initial setup, I think that although a G1 air raid on UK will be feasible, it will not be compatible with a G2 Sea Lion (and possibly a G3 Sea Lion as well, though that is harder to plot out).
Germany has 6 fighters/TACs and a bomber that can reach UK, and one fighter that can’t (Norway). If you attack with 5 Fighters/TACs and a bomber, you expect 1 AA hit, and the battle will then be two threes and three fours against two twos and three fours. Basically even, and expecting a mutual annihilation. (Also, two of the attacking fours get degrated to threes when their matching fighter gets destroyed, so effectively they’re fours that have to get hit first), so that battle really is almost dead even. Therefore, you’ll want to attack with all seven aircraft that can attack, getting reduced to 6 and winning while losing about 2/3s of your air force. That leaves 5 subs, one fighter, and the Baltic Fleet to destroy as many UK ships as possible. The Baltic fleet can destroy the Cruisers in SZ112, but may lose a cruiser to do so (~50%). Two subs can destroy the destroyer and transport. Three subs and a plane can destroy one battleship+escort, but the other Battleship and escort will survive. They plus the carrier, TAC, and destroyer in Gibraltar can attack SZ112, which means that you can’t just load it up with transports, and if you build enough to defend that SZ (An aircraft carrier, landing two of your surviving planes is your best bet, which would let you buy two more transports), you probably don’t have enough transports to take UK on G2 if they build all infantry.
G3 might be doable, but the permutations get out of control.
I think, if you’re going to do Sea Lion, you’ll need to focus your air force on destroying UK’s navy, rather than strafing their air force.
I feel a little bit better now.
G3 UK Crush + J3 India Crush!
I just battle calc’d France with everything Germany could throw in, 10 inf (6 reg plus 4 mech), 2 art, and 5 tanks vs. France’s 7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks, and 1 fig; there’s a 95% chance of success for the attacker. The attacker (Germany) even has ~7 units remaining, so the tank stack would be intact. Italy could even take out Southern France before France’s turn to eliminate the artillery (France’s last offensive unit) if France’s fall was really close.
Ok lets say Germany attacks UK on G1 with everything they got. What do they have left to fight France with if they try both?
Sealion seems best attempted on G1, because you don’t know what UK will do if they are given another turn to survive. They may might buy all infantry to block.
Can you run the numbers of doing both and having Italy do its part as well?
@Imperious:
Sealion seems best attempted on G1, because you don’t know what UK will do if they are given another turn to survive. They may might buy all infantry to block.
I’m pretty sure G1 Sea Lion is impossible because there are naval units in SZs 110, 111, and 112, so there’s no way for the German transport to break through.
Again I’m sure this was play-tested for and if Sealion is a possible move it will most likely severely cripple the Germans from taking France or building a offense to attack Russia.
Again I’m sure this was play-tested for and if Sealion is a possible move it will most likely severely cripple the Germans from taking France or building a offense to attack Russia.
I was just gonna say that if Germany tries this and fails… they are basically screwed for the game. Russia will be massive, the US will be moving out… It isn’t pretty. It is a massive gamble, but hey, some people are into that… that’s fine. If I was Britain I would certainly build all Infantry and the tank. Building ships would be dumb.
What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?
What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
Man! This is crap!
What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
Man! This is crap!
I can imagine you saying
"Ah Snap! :x "
:-D
@Dylan:
Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.
Man! This is crap!
I can imagine you saying
"Ah Snap! :x "
:-D
Nan, “Snap” isn’t so much in my typical list of expressions. I am more the: “Awww MAN! Dang it! :x” type.
Certainly the idea of pulling off Sea Lion has a sort of romantic flair. However, it is also something that bothers me from a realism and balance perspective.
In terms of realism, my understanding is that in 1940 British home fleet (not to mention the entire navy) assets were at something like a 10 to 1 advantage over the entire Germany surface fleet. As for U-Boats, while they were a crucial economic weapon, they were of limited value against large surface formations. The whole idea that Germany can sink most of the British navy round 1 seems rather absurd. Then there is the RAF. German planners felt that Sea Lion had no chance unless air superiority could be achieved over the channel. That was not something they had, nor were they ever able to achieve it despite some effort. It would have required sustained effort to have had even a chance. Definitely not round 1 and done. Finally, they did not have the means to transport and keep in supply the number of troops and equipment necessary for an amphibious invasion. They had no landing craft, for example, and would need to rely on river barges.
For all of these reasons, and others, Sea Lion was shelved to the relief of the generals, who thought they could easily lose badly.
As to balance, only time and a number of games will tell. However, it seems Britain already has its hands full in the Pacific and Africa in this game. A credible (or should I say INcredible) threat of successful German invasion that forces them into an all infantry to London build seems an unreasonable hindrance to the Allied effort. I can see making the British fleet under-represented to keep them off Germany for a while as a game mechanic. However, 1 British and 1 French infantry in UK does not seem at all realistic or balanced. I agree with the suggestion that adding a few (either nation) would probably be a good solution.
What about German paratroops eliminating the need for transports? :?
What about German paratroops eliminating the need for transports? :?
Excellent point. Just need to be within 3 spaces of an airbase, correct?
I agree with BlueIguana on most of what he wrote.
Even the surface combat fleet was an economic raiding tool, rather than any assistance for Sea Lion.
Back in the 70’s the British war college or something like that wargamed it out. In the wargame, the Germans were able to make the landings, but the Royal Navy was able to eventually cut off the landings, which isolated the Germans, game over. I dont think you can say the attempt and landings were impossible.
Here are some if’s for a possible Sea Lion: If the Germans had captured the 340,000 Allied troops at Dunkirk, and the Luftwaffe had concentrated their air power only over the Channel and a little past the British beaches, knock out the radar antenna’s daily instead of going far interior, make the landings in July, there might have been a chance. My biggest problem at this point is supply…would the royal navy have broken into a heavily mined English Channel, and how long would that have taken? Would the Luftwaffe done a number on the Royal Navy?..their showing at Dunkirk was disapointing from that view and question. The lack of landing craft and the lack of appropriate kinds of aircraft(longer range FTR’s, and a very large number of Condor’s) make Sea Lion even ify’er.
From a AA standpoint I think a Sea Lion should be a possibility since you should not be saddled with the poor planning of Hitler, and then there is the ‘fun factor’ for the game itself.
Agreed. Absolutely, the fun factor is the most important thing. I definitely prefer an enjoyable, close game where every player has a chance to come out on the winning side to a historical re-enactment masquerading as a game.
My only concern is making sure the UK player gets to have some fun too. So far, UK Pacific fleet gets crushed by Japan round 1. UK Atlantic fleet gets sunk by Germany round 1. By round three or four India falls to Japan. Meanwhile the Italians have Egypt and are romping through the middle of Africa because all UK can do is stack London and hope to, but probably not, survive Sea Lion.
Not much to smile about or enjoy if I am playing UK….
There may be an exception to Americans helping England because Roosevelt, even though not at war, encouraged citizens to go to Britain to help out the British. This allowed America to help and stay neutral. This being said a G1 Sea-lion would be the only feasible option because the British tac bomber can land from Gibraltar the bombers from central America could fly over to add fodder and the Canadians can add a tank and a guy. even without America the British could still do just a normal buy and group their boats to block or destroy the German fleet. I do not see Sea Lion happening unless the English player is terrible or Germany is incredibly lucky
I’m calculating a 75% chance of winning the RAF battle in England if you send in the entire airforce (3 fig 3 tac and 1 bomber), with an average of 2 units left over… ouch. Yeah, basic mutual annihilation, and this is if you get even odds with the initial AA roll. I’m guessing the German player would like to keep at least one fighter to land on the carrier, with the other fighter from Norway landing in SZ 112. The other unit that survives could either be the bomber or a tac.
With the scenario proposed by BlueIguana with the remainder of the German fleet, however, it looks like the best Germany can clear out of the Atlantic is the two cruisers in SZ 112, the destroyer trans combo in SZ 109 and one of the battleship cruiser or destroyer sets in SZ 110 or 111. That leaves a sizeable portion to make a blocking force in the Channel, 1 bs 1 cru or 1 dd 1 ac and 1 tac. 29 UK IPCs on UK1 can add 3 dd to this blockade. OR Britain could attack SZ 112 with this, 1 bb 1 cru or 1 dd and 1 tac… Ok, the UK probably won’t go offensive against a German loaded carrier/bs combo. I’m thinking the UK will go defensive with this fleet. If Britain can build enough naval units in the Channel SZ they don’t have to worry about building land units in England.
What does Germany have left on G2 to pound this with? With its G1 buy if Germany is trying Sealion a carrier is a must, that’s 16 IPCs, 14 left could either buy 2 transports or 1 dd and 1 sub. If Germany builds the 2 trans the most it has to go offensive with is 1 bb 1 cru 2 ss (from surrounding SZs, maybe, if any have survived from UK1) 2 fig 1 tac against UK’s 1 bb 1 cru or 3/4 dd 1 ac and 1 tac. Calculating these odds, ugh… 63% chance of victory, IF all these preconditions are met, with MAYBE one unit left over… The three loaded transports would have to come in with this attack and kill the Canadian UK units (1 inf and 1 tank) landed on UK1, which should be over fairly easily. But you’d be fighting against the odds for this one. It might be better to try…
Additional G2 Strategy with 3 transports in SZ 112 … INVADE SCOTLAND!!!: Why not sacrifice the 3 transports and land 6 land units in Scotland G2? Once you’ve landed your troops, the transport’s work is done. This way you’d have 6 land units bordering England which only has a tank and inf for defense. This way you’d force England to build some land units for defense UK2, leave its fleet perilously weak in the Channel, plus Germany’s G2 monster +17 France’s and NOs IPC God-build ensures that you can build more transports and naval units in SZ 112 to ensure victory!!!
To even the odds a bit in this G2 naval battle, if Germany builds 1 dd and 1 sub into SZ 112 instead of the 2 trans on G1, the battle with the surviving British fleet becomes a little easier… 1 bb 1 cru 3 ss 1 dd 2 fig 1 tac against UK’s 1 bb 1 cru or 3/4 dd 1 ac and 1 tac defending the Channel. This battle could be easily won with 95% odds of success with about 5 units remaining. One loaded transport invading Britain against the Canadian 1 inf and 1 tank would have 75% odds if a fighter was detached from the naval battle to finish off Britain. Seems like pretty good odds, even with a one trans invasion.
I’m even thinking Germany’s best strategy may be building 1 carrier, 1 trans and 1 sub G1 to take care of UK1 either/or possibilities in terms of reinforcing its fleet in SZ 110 or building all inf. Would sorta cover both fronts, and force Britain to go either all-in on one with naval or land or half-as#ed on both.
Anyway, Germany makes so much money for a G2 build from France’s fall that building a follow-up invasion fleet on G2 should be cake for finishing off whatever British naval units are left around Britain, if a determined German player wishes to try a Sealion. I’d worry about the USA and Russia G3, but at least you’d have a decent shot at taking England with this strat.
