AAG40 balance Poll

France would be a factor if there was a “Free France” with a capitol and a factory somewhere.  As it is now, they are a speed bumb, as they were historically.  After the first turn they will have 5 scattered INF, 1 DD, and 1 CA, and have given Germany their 17 IPC’s.

@miamibeach:

France would be a factor if there was a “Free France” with a capitol and a factory somewhere.  As it is now, they are a speed bumb, as they were historically.  After the first turn they will have 5 scattered INF, 1 DD, and 1 CA, and have given Germany their 17 IPC’s.

You seem to assume that the Axis players will be the over-aggressive type and will try to attack every Allied ship in range. The French Med fleet is exposed to be sure, but when the Italians try to take it out, it’s going to be much more than a speed bump.

You know, not every Axis player has to be overly aggressive to win  :roll:

The Italian fleet should not attack the French fleet in SZ 91.  On the first turn the Germans can easily sink the French DD and CA, and in return might lose one FTR.

The axis are confined to their local theatres of war. The allies have territories in, and can influence, the events in either theatre at their whim. Advantage = Allies.

@miamibeach:

The Italian fleet should not attack the French fleet in SZ 91.  On the first turn the Germans can easily sink the French DD and CA, and in return might lose one FTR.

With what? The majority of the Luftwaffe is going to be engaged against the remnants of the French Army and BEF in France, and what fighters remain should be saved for far more important things, like the imminent Eastern Front or Africa. Without proper air support I doubt the Germans will take the Paris territory on its first turn.

See, I’m someone who doesn’t deal in absolutes: because people roll dice to attack, almost anything can go wrong. I fully expect to see the French and British armies left in France actually hold out up to G2, perhaps rarely, but its still possible.

Nah, france can be smashed with ground units, from my count germany has
6 inf, 2 art, 4 mech, 6 arm in range, allies have
7 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, 1 fig, meaning allies lose.  Even the other 2 french territories can be taken on G1 if they want, although it may force them to use a plane or two, as there is only 1 inf on one, and an inf/art on the other.

The UK has a massive fleet to begin the game with, and will almost always build a carrier turn 1, and i’m not sure but i’m assuming atleast a battleship will survive.  I mean UK alone starts with 5 DD / 4 Cru / 1 AC / 2 BB / 3 Trans, that is alot of hits!  Not to mention the 4 french boats helping to shield them.  You will want to kill every UK boat on turn 1 you can, or Germany will be screwed.

@bugoo:

Nah, france can be smashed with ground units, from my count germany has
6 inf, 2 art, 4 mech, 6 arm in range, allies have
7 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, 1 fig, meaning allies lose.  Even the other 2 french territories can be taken on G1 if they want, although it may force them to use a plane or two, as there is only 1 inf on one, and an inf/art on the other.

The UK has a massive fleet to begin the game with, and will almost always build a carrier turn 1, and i’m not sure but i’m assuming atleast a battleship will survive.  I mean UK alone starts with 5 DD / 4 Cru / 1 AC / 2 BB / 3 Trans, that is alot of hits!  Not to mention the 4 french boats helping to shield them.  You will want to kill every UK boat on turn 1 you can, or Germany will be screwed.

That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.

@UN:

That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.

UN, I agree that at the beginning France has the potential to be much more than just a speed bump. But once Germany has taken France… they become less than a speed bump. I think that remaining French units can surely make important contributions to events in the game… but they will be non-functioning as a power.

As for the topic: I agree with ProudAmerican, the Allied income and Russian size (distance from Berlin to Moscow) should offset early German and Japanese strength.

@LHoffman:

@UN:

That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.

UN, I agree that at the beginning France has the potential to be much more than just a speed bump. But once Germany has taken France… they become less than a speed bump. I think that remaining French units can surely make important contributions to events in the game… but they will be non-functioning as a power.

You’re right. Once France falls its power is negligible. But that doesn’t mean the Free French units will play a negligible role in the battle for Africa.

Also, if the Allies ever liberate France again, Germany’s in a critical position at that point. France gets four free infantry in the Paris territory and once again becomes a full power.

@UN:

You’re right. Once France falls its power is negligible. But that doesn’t mean the Free French units will play a negligible role in the battle for Africa.

Also, if the Allies ever liberate France again, Germany’s in a critical position at that point. France gets four free infantry in the Paris territory and once again becomes a full power.

True, to both points.

If the US liberates Paris,
then France collects income…
and then Germany may conquer again Paris and get the french money.
:-D

@Jake:

If the US liberates Paris,
then France collects income…
and then Germany may conquer again Paris and get the french money.
:-D

You’re right. That doesn’t mean it’s going to be a walk in the park though.

@UN:

@bugoo:

Nah, france can be smashed with ground units, from my count germany has
6 inf, 2 art, 4 mech, 6 arm in range, allies have
7 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, 1 fig, meaning allies lose.  Even the other 2 french territories can be taken on G1 if they want, although it may force them to use a plane or two, as there is only 1 inf on one, and an inf/art on the other.

The UK has a massive fleet to begin the game with, and will almost always build a carrier turn 1, and i’m not sure but i’m assuming atleast a battleship will survive.  I mean UK alone starts with 5 DD / 4 Cru / 1 AC / 2 BB / 3 Trans, that is alot of hits!  Not to mention the 4 french boats helping to shield them.  You will want to kill every UK boat on turn 1 you can, or Germany will be screwed.

That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.

Counting all the units from the GSG, Holland/Belgium, and West Germany territories; Germany will have 6 inf, 2 art, 4 mec, and 5 tanks in range of the French territories.  An aggressive Germany could send 2 inf and 1 art from Holland/Belgium against Normandy/Bordeaux, 1 mec and 1 tank (probably with a tac for support) through Italy to Southern France, and still have 4 inf, 1 art, 3 mec, and 4 tanks for Paris (about 87% chance of victory).  This means that simply by using a couple planes Germany can take out all of France on the first turn relatively easily and leave themselves the rest of their airforce for the Allied Navy.

So it’s looking like France won’t be around for very long, just like Larry said, and Germany won’t have to worry too badly about immediate reprisals from the UK.  Whether that’s good or bad remains to be seen…

@SAS:

@UN:

@bugoo:

Nah, france can be smashed with ground units, from my count germany has
6 inf, 2 art, 4 mech, 6 arm in range, allies have
7 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, 1 fig, meaning allies lose.  Even the other 2 french territories can be taken on G1 if they want, although it may force them to use a plane or two, as there is only 1 inf on one, and an inf/art on the other.

The UK has a massive fleet to begin the game with, and will almost always build a carrier turn 1, and i’m not sure but i’m assuming atleast a battleship will survive.  I mean UK alone starts with 5 DD / 4 Cru / 1 AC / 2 BB / 3 Trans, that is alot of hits!  Not to mention the 4 french boats helping to shield them.  You will want to kill every UK boat on turn 1 you can, or Germany will be screwed.

That still doesn’t count as an automatic win for the Axis. Again, Axis victory in France is virtually guaranteed, but I sill use the word “virtual”, not absolute. Perhaps the Allies can still score a victory in death, say, if most of their units get hits. That’s going to inflict horrible losses on the Germans.

Counting all the units from the GSG, Holland/Belgium, and West Germany territories; Germany will have 6 inf, 2 art, 4 mec, and 5 tanks in range of the French territories.  An aggressive Germany could send 2 inf and 1 art from Holland/Belgium against Normandy/Bordeaux, 1 mec and 1 tank (probably with a tac for support) through Italy to Southern France, and still have 4 inf, 1 art, 3 mec, and 4 tanks for Paris (about 87% chance of victory).  This means that simply by using a couple planes Germany can take out all of France on the first turn relatively easily and leave themselves the rest of their airforce for the Allied Navy.

So it’s looking like France won’t be around for very long, just like Larry said, and Germany won’t have to worry too badly about immediate reprisals from the UK.  Whether that’s good or bad remains to be seen…

And as I said, victory is almost guaranteed. But 87% is not quite 100%.

This is true, but my point is that adding just 1 tac (with its attack of 4 with the tanks) to that attack gives you 1 95% chance of success in Paris.  If you change the scenario by sending 2 mec to Southern France with the tank and send 2 tacs to Paris it gets even better.

France Attack Scenario

Normandy:
2 inf, 1 art v. 1 inf - 97.9% chance of victory

Southern France:
2 mec, 1 tank v. 1 inf - 98.5% chance of victory

France:
4 inf, 1 art, 2 mec, 4 tank, 2 tac v. 6 inf, 1 art, 1 tnk, 1 ftr - 96.7% chance of victory

Leaving Germany with 5 subs, 4 fighters, 1 tac bomber, and 1 strat bomber for any naval strikes they want to make. Walk in to your pro-Axis neutrals, attack Yugoslavia and maybe Norway if you feel lucky and there’s your G1 move.

I would leave Southern France for the Italians.  I think the opening moves for Germany and UK need to be looked at through the prism of a possible “Sea Lion”, thanks to SgtBlitz.  Use the 2TAC for Sea Lion and instead use the 2 MECH, 1 ARM on France.

@Jake:

If the US liberates Paris,
then France collects income…
and then Germany may conquer again Paris and get the french money.
:-D

Considering the IPC gain, it looks like there will be a good incentive for Germany to launch a desparate Bulge-style counterattack in that situation. Should force the Allies to only take Paris when they have sufficient strength to hold it, as trading the territory would only benefit the Germans.

Well, it looks like Germany can buzz England G1 with almost its entire air force (3 fig, 3 tac, 1 bomber) and KO the RAF the first round (2 inf and 3 fig plus AA hits defending).  I’d say that’s a pretty large Axis advantage, tied to a Sealion attempt.

Yeah, I can’t wait to try out strategies for this game, there are so many possibilities it is going to be really fun to play.

UN SPacey said

And as I said, victory is almost guaranteed

Spacey has the right thinking. Given enough time,there will be games where G1 attack fails due to really bad dice rolls (boxcars and 5-fever) for G and all bullseyes and deuces for France. A lethal first two rounds that tilt the balance to France. Germany will come out and roll a quick 5-5-5-5-5 (say it fast so it sounds like a machine gun) for two rounds while France uses those “special” dice and voila, victoire…Vive le France!! It will happen

on side note…my brother has one weird die that I call “Cyclops”. Its an ugly whitish-yellow die with a giant dot for the 1…now i dont want to call him a cheater plus i dont think he would go out of his way to rig a die but this dammed thing rolls 1 after 1 after 1. when he pulls it out we both laugh and then he rolls a dammed 1 and i fume.its really amazing. im sure there is a scientific explanation,like lead painted dots for the 6 ( which is opposite the 1 on the die).

edit to use digits instead of spelling numbers