Malachi placed a IC in Philippines and started pouring units into the territory. Had to use a much larger force to take the islands.
Does J1 Attack "Break" the games?
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Well, I’m hopeful in seeing the poll results here, 63% percent think that a J1 attack does not break the game. The problem is, I’ve seen absolutely no strategies outlined that subscribe a US course of action or strategy to follow.
Take Korea is the only strategy I’ve seen mentioned, but that’s easier said than done.
I went out to Dayton last week, and a good friend of mine and myself logged our 110th hour of playing AAP:40.
We started out using Van Trumps Japan takes Midway then builds a naval base there J1 strategy, and the Allies won both of those games quite easily. We switched sides, so that we could both take a crack at it. Niether one of us liked that strategy for Japan. It took too many of Japan’s resources straight at the US, who have the means to defeat it, with the help of ANZAC forces.
So we were kinda hopeful about the whole game and the J1 attack after that. Those were the first two Allied wins we’d seen in quite awhile!
Then we played two more game using the J1 attack, but this time we decided to use good ole’ common sense with the Japanese, and attacked into the DEI and toward India, the same strategy that had worked so well in all the other numerous Japanese wins we’ve seen, in J2 and a few J3 attacks.
Holy smokes, the Japanese just go through the Allies like a hot knife through butter! I’m not saying Van Trumps strategy won’t work, it’s just not nearly as effective as going after the DEI first though. Japan’s IPC level skyrockets with the DEI first strategy; Singapore gets a major IC extremely fast; and that all spells trouble for Australia after India bites the dust.
I think my friend, who just joined the boards here as Buckeyeboy (BB), as well as myself are leaning heavily toward the opinion that the game is not just slanted toward the Japanese, but possibly broken in their favor.
Before we make our final opinion up on the matter though, I think both of us are extremely interested in hearing from those people who feel that the game is not broken and feel that it is a balanced enough game that the Allies ought to be able to win their fair share of games.
The problem here again is, that we see people express their opinion that the Allies can win, that Japan is not so super unbeatable, but we see absolutely no strategies discussed beyond the vague. It’s like there are a lot of folks saying the Japanese are beatable, but nobody really has any idea how to do it!
With Japan being declared an island for the scramble rule purpose, and it’s having a huge advantage in air units, even a novice player Japanese player is going to be able to hold Korea and Japan from direct attack.
My own thoughts for the general Allied strategy are along these lines. If Japan wants India, then Japan is going to eventually take India, and there is nothing the Allies can do to prevent this. The British should make every attempt to make this as slow and as costly a proposition as possible for the Japanese player.
Australia should begin building for it’s defense from the onset, but the Allies should strive to control the Solomons to gain Australia the bonus IPCs.
The US should move toward securing one of the following islands as a base to move against SZ19 with the aim of getting at Korea through the backdoor route via Manchuria. Iwo Jima, Guam or the Marshalls will work, but an airbase is going to be needed regardless.
Once India falls, the Japanese most likely are going to turn on Australia. So I think the Allies should choose one of the above bases as a potential threat to the PI as well. With the Japanese needing 6 VCs to win, the Allies are going to need to make the Japanese protect the PI as well as Japan & Korea as they move toward Australia.
The game at that point should be fairly even, at least in theory here. IPC levels should be very close with Japan trying to gain Australia as it’s 6th VC while trying to hold Japan & the PI.
One problem we’ve encountered as the Allies is selling out on Allied builds in an all out attempt at saving India. Nothing we’ve been able to do has stopped India from falling. So I believe in our games that we will try a switch in Allied thinking to one of thinking about making the final stand in Australia instead of trying to hold the line in India.
The main point for the Allies here is going to be deciding on what island base it’s going to go after to make its forward operating base.
Guam comes ready loaded with an airbase. It is also just far enough out of the way that fighters & dive bombers coming from Truk can’t overfly and land in Japan, and vice versa. It also doesn’t incure the wrath of the Kamikazies. It requires a naval base on Wake to operate effectively, but this is my favorite choice. It also threatens more of the board without the need for a naval base. Plus, with the airbase already there, the Allies have the chance to grab it, then fly in ANZAC air to reinforce and immediately scramble to protect the ships that brought the invasion troops.
Iwo is just far north enough that IMHO, it would need a naval base as well as an airbase to enable it to threaten the PI. Being adjacent to Japan, it’s also likely to see heavy air attacks against any ships there. I like this as my last choice.
The Marshalls are my in between choice. The Allies can move to this location from Pearl, but it is adjacent to Truk, and so is in a flyover route from Truk to Japan & vice versa.
So here is the strategy I will follow in our next series of games when BB & I get together again in Dayton, hopefully on 4/20-21. We usually get in at least 15 solid hours of game play, and sometimes as much as 18. Lots of beer drinking the first night too! :-D
My overall strategy for the Allies will be:
1.) Make India as slow and as costly as possible
2.) Build to defend Australia as best as possible
3.) Secure a forward base for the US, hopefully Guam, or the Marshalls with the goal of getting at Korea via Manchuria or to take back Manilla
4.) Force Japan to defend SZ 6, SZ19, Truk, the PI & the DEII calculate that for Japan, with all of Britians holdings, minus Canadian BC; with all of China; with all of the DEI+ bonus, Vietnam & the PI…Japan should top out at 73 IPC. 72 if the US takes away Iwo.
The US & ANZAC can be at 70, 71 with Iwo & the Solomons bonus.
In theory, it should be a game still, but BB and I will have to try it out. Van Trumps J1 attack centered on a naval base for the Japanese at Midway sounded like a pretty solid theory too, but that wasn’t the case in actual play.
I’m just hoping that the Allies have a course of action open to them that will make AAP:40 a game, I sure want it to be a good game to play on it’s own, but so far we have our doubts.
BB and I have 110 hours in playing this game, and there have been precious few Allied wins. We’ll see if this general Allied strategy at least gives the Allies half a chance in a few weeks, back in Dayton. :-)
With this strategy, what should the UK build? Infantry to delay or planes to escape death and fight on?
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I completely agree with Autarch, I’ve played 5 or so games on the forum and 15 or 20 in real life, against good oponents and it seems clear the game, like many of its predecessors has some balance issues. I’ve been reading the posts on this for a while now and although I have seem some well thought out strategies they all really seem to need a ton of luck or the Japanese having never seen that strategy before.
In the forum we have begun (in some games) to bid for the Axis ie. take the Allies but with additional IPC to build units at the start of the game.
The problem we have started to run into is the bid number needed to stand a chance with the Allies get to be high enough that the options of what the Allies could do with the extra cash become hard to fore see.
However I have been watching a few other games and it seems that if the Japanese attack turn 2 or latter the games are much closer. The problem is, why on earth would Japan wait until turn 2 to attack as game after game on the forum shows that, played correctly and baring horrible luck, the Japanese take India on turn 3.
We have been working on counters to extend that to turn 4 but it is VERY difficult and typically relies on the Japanese player making a mistake or two.Someone had asked about a J1 attack on Haw. It is possible, but requires a good measure of luck to actually capture Haw on turn 1 (which is really the only point to it) as that, allows you in SOME games to kill the 2nd half of the US fleet and cost them a ton of money.
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Hey Hewhoisnickel
AN2: Destroy both destroyers with planes, use original transport/destroyer to take Java, and on the way, Dutch New Guinea. 54>46>45>42 Move second transport and submarine to SZ46. Build another destroyer.
Sounds like you are using one transport to take two territories in one round. A transports move ends when they unload, they can’t unload one unit then move on and unload a second unit elsewhere.
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Aww… really? That totally ruins my plan. :P Well, you can still somewhat follow it, just picking away at Japan’s south Pacific possessions as the ANZAC.
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I’m currently developing a strategy that runs counter to this by moving as much UK forces to Australia as possible. China and India are going to fall. Period. No point in building infantry that are just going to be exchanged for Japanese infantry that if it survives will end up being left behind anyway when the war turns back East. Better to turn those IPCs into aircraft that can fly out of harms way and live to fight another day.
What to build for the British, good question. That’s a very interesting idea to build a/c and then fly them out.
I had thought of the idea of waiting until the last possible moment, and then flying out the at start British air to Australia, so you’re ahead of me on that one.
I had also thought of pulling the troops out of Singapore on B1 to Shan State, with the idea of trying to fall these units back on India.
Ah hell, Dogfights just came on the History Channel!!!
I’ll get back to ya later fellas! :-)
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With this strategy, what should the UK build? Infantry to delay or planes to escape death and fight on?
Ok, I’m kinda texting right now with my good friend who just joined the boards here as Buckeyeboy, while he gets a break or two at work.
One thing we saw with the J1 attack, aside from the fact that the Japanese player can take the game any which way he/she wants right out of the gate, was that it seems fairly obvious that one good strategy for Japan would be to grab Manilla and one of the DEI islands on J1. Then the Japanese player would be in position to grab the remaining three DEI islands and light the Japanese economy with the bonus.
If the Japanese charge after India on J1, then one thing we’ve seen to put the US in a good position was the following. On US1, buy 2 transports, move the rest of the fleet to Pearl. With the J1 attack, we see the Japanese sub going into Hawaii on J1 and downing the US transport there. So there probably won’t be much need to leave anything back to guard the transports (as the US fleet kills the sub in moving to Hawaii); but you can if the threat is there. The idea here is to build a naval base on Wake island on US2, and have the transports from San Fran join the fleet there on US2. That would give the US three fully loaded transports at Wake available for US3, able to now move three sea zones.
On US1, the US should send its bombers to Australia, at Queensland, to potentially pick off unescorted Japanese transports in the DEI. Basically, it forces the Japanese to escort them, as with only 3 down in the area, the Japanese can’t afford to let them go that way.
I would sent 2 ANZAC infantry to ANZAC New Guinea on ANZAC1, looking to take Dutch New Guinea on ANZAC2 for the bonus.
On turn 2, the Japanese may be looking to grab up the DEI and the bonus. The US bombers out of Queensland can reach the SZs around Guam & the PI, landing back on New Guinea. So the Japanese will have a hard time protecting all of it’s transports if it tries to grab Guam or reinforce Manilla on J2.
Also, for Britain, I would pull out of Singapore and move that whole force to Shan State. The British & ANZAC could take Siam turn 2, giving the ANZAC player a crucial 5 point bonus if they are able to move their infantry into Siam. The British are also in a position to attack French Indochina on B2 as well. At the very least, they are in a position to deny Burma to Japan on turn 2.
I’ve batted around potential buys for the British, like maybe getting 2 subs on turn one in order to form a strike force on B2 together with their air, CA & DD on a portion of the Japanese fleet in the DEI.
Now having said all of this, I read a post a while back that said just because India falls, it doesn’t mean the game is over. The Japanese wins by controlling 6 of the 8 VCs in the game.
Now, here’s the hard thing to get used to. For those who’ve played A&A all the way back to the MB version, it’s kinda been an unwriten rule that you played to the death. That is to say, you played to the point where everyone agreed that the game had reached a tipping point for one side or the other, and you called it.
Starting with AAR, and continuing on with AA50, the idea of victory cities has been introduced into the game. We wound up ignoring them with AAR, and pretty much did the same thing with AA50 (Ottawa never seemed quite right for some reason).
In AAP:40, I’m thinking it’s important to pay attention to the VCs, they may have finally gotten them to the point where they actually work (everyone in the room suddenly gasps :-o).
Now here’s what I’m thinking, if the US is in striking distance of Guam from Wake on US3.
In looking at Guam, it sits adjacent to no less than 3 victory cities. Shang-Hai in SZ19, Hong Kong in SZ20 & Manilla in SZ35.
If India falls, the the Japanese have 5 VCs. If Australia falls, they have their 6, but the US can be in a position to threaten Shang-Hai, Hong Kong & Manilla as early as US4.
Also, by forming up at Wake island, the US should move their bombers to ANZAC New Guinea on US2. The Caroline islands are now able to be hit by the US by 3 infantry, 1 arty, 1 mech, 1 armor, 2 bombers, 1CV fighter and finally 1 CV Tac bomber in the land fight. 2 fighters and 2 Tac bombers can overfly the sea battle portion from Wake and land in ANZAC New Guinea, to bolster the fleet in the sea battle portion, if Truks air comes out there. It’s a threat the Japanese are going to have to watch.
I’m not saying the US should grab Truk, I’m just saying that by forming up at Wake, the US has some really good options to go to, depending on the game situation.
Also, someone in this thread suggested flying the British fighters to Australia, and buying air units for the British buys in order to fly them out immediately. I had been pondering the idea of holding the British air in India until the last possible moment to draw the Japanese as far to that side of the board as possible. Then, just before the Japanese were able to take India, I had the thought to fly them out to Australia.
Taking those lines of thought further, I’m now thinking that the best use of the British air would be to fly them out of India on B1. Either to Dutch New Guinea, where they could join up with the ANZAC air, or to Australia. From Dutch New Guinea, they threaten SZ20(The PI). Dutch New Giunea may be a stretch, but regardless, I’m thinking they should go to Australia. One good combination the Allies have going for them is to have the US take an island or territory, and then have the ANZAC air units swoop in right behind them to reinforce before the Japanese can react. In particular, I’ve always thought that that would be a great combination on US3 with Guam. The US strike from Wake with up to 3 fully loaded transports, then the ANZAC air flies up from Queensland to make immediate use of the airbase there.
Well, I’m thinking that the Allies should be doing the same sort of thing with the British air too. Britian moves after the US, so those 4 Brit fighters and the Tac bomber should be able to be put to goods use together with a US move on an island base, or evem better a territory. Again, I’m thing about Guam. On B1, the Brits fly to Australia, then to the airbase in Queensland on B2. If the US is able to grab Guam on US 3, then not only could the ANZAC air move in, but so could the British air.
Consider this scenario. The US has formed up at Wake as I outline, and move just 3 transport (maybe a US DD too to screen off subs afterwards) to Guam and take it on US3. The ANZAC & British air come up to the airbase there, and suddenly there are 8 fighters and a Tac bomber to provide air cover.
In a situation like that, to start off turn 4, India should still be in the game. The Allies now threaten Shang-Hai, Hong Kong & Manilla from Guam. In theory, a game like that should be anyones from that point forward.
The main idea here is to try to position the Allies for a chance to make a game out of this thing, or in other words, to just get to a good mid game point. There’s a whole heap of things the Japanese can do in response, but the key thing to remember here is that nobody knows just what the other is going to do, so this is kinda just a general strategy to give the Allies some hope of taking advantage of what the Japanese player actually does.
I’m thinking that if the Allies can maneuver into a position to threaten Shang-Hai, Hong Kong & Manilla from Guam, or any island base, then the fall of India won’t be the end of the world for the Allies. The Japanese are going to have to go after Australia or Hawaii while fending off the above VCs from Allied attacks.
**Edit: Correction to the above concerning bringing the British air to Australia on B1. The one fighter in Burma can’t make it, and I believe this fighter should stay with the British in India, in case the Brits get a chance to attack into a weakly held Siam or French Indochina on B2.
Also, the US doesn’t have to place a naval base on Wake, the over all strategy will work running the US out of Hawaii. Just from Wake the US threatens more. From Hawaii I see the Marshall Islands as the US target, which will require a US airbase build ASAP.
One more thing to keep in mind, a US naval base on Midway is great for the US at some point. It allows the US to get into SZ19 thru SZ6, but this is easily blocked there too.**
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I’ve done something like that in my current game. I bought 2 transports on UK1, and was able to take Sumatra and Java with them. I used the CA and DD to block the SZ’s to sumatra. Then, I flew in the RAF to defend them. This denies Japan 13 IPC’s, and 9IPC’s even if you can’t take Java.
What do you think about the 2 transport buy?
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I have a few thoughts to share on the subject of the J1 attack.
First off, I have never noticed anyone mention a J1 attack on Hawaii. Is there something in the errata that prevents this? In my most recent game, I, as Japan, took Hawaii and the Philippines first turn, and they were unable to take it back US1. Here’s how:
-Fleet in Carolines + SZ19 head over to Philippines
-Fleet in SZ6 all head to Hawaii and take it
-On US1 the attacking fleet have a roughly 50/50 chance of taking Hawaii back, and they lostA J1 attack like you described on Hawaii (assuming the tactical bomber scrambles to prevent the BBs + CA from firing) has a chance of success of 37%, defenders will survive 54%). If you lose, the US + ANZAC can land all their planes there, to try to prevent J from taking Hawaii on J2. Unless J takes Hawaii and its naval base the IJN fleet has reduced mobility and meanwhile transports send to Hawaii are not being used on the DEI or in China.
It is a major gamble for Japan. If it works then the US will be out of E. Pacific. If it doesn’t, then Japan just suffered a setback.
For Japan to invade Hawaii on J1, they would need to bring all three transports with 1 armor, 1 artillery and 3 infantry for a better chance of success. 5 units hitting at 1.5 vs 4 units hitting at 1.5 for the US (assuming the tactical bomber scrambles to prevent shore bombardment). Japan comes out with a very slight advantage.
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I definitely think the US needs to buy bases. Wake naval base is interesting, another good one, if you can get a suicide transport in, is an airbase on a DEI island. Dump planes, and Japan’s going to struggle to get that vital bonus.
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The problem I had as US was stretched supply lines once you extend yourself beyond Hawaii.
US occupied Truk or Guam is vulnerable to a counter attack from Japan.
To prevent this I would spend a turn as Japan buying subs to deter the US fleet from coming too close.The solution for US is to wait a couple of turns to build up an unassailable fleet; but do you have the time?
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The cheap way to do it is planes and airbases. If there are transports in the square and japan has subs, you need a couple of destroyers there too. If you have figs + tacs on a chain of airbases the island air garrisons can trade places and mess up anything in between on the way.
Now you will need other fleet for offensive naval operations. In the specific case of an India rush, you should have a lot of freedom to take islands - with suicide transports if necessary, then dump anzac fighters on them. If you can get an airbase and a decent stack on java or another dei island, you can inflict horrible damage on the japanese fleet.
I had a wee look at this J1 rush, am going to give it some more tries, but it seems to me that to take India J3 a gap will be left somewhere, the allies need to aggressively-but-cheaply push into that.
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I had a wee look at this J1 rush, am going to give it some more tries, but it seems to me that to take India J3 a gap will be left somewhere, the allies need to aggressively-but-cheaply push into that.
I keep reading about the Japanese taking India on J3, and I’d have to agree that there is going to be a “gap” in there somewhere. I don’t see the Japanese taking the DEI on J2, and then India on J3.
Is there someone who could briefly outline the moves the Japanese take in getting to India on J3? :-)
I think I read in a post somewhere that Japan needed Burma on J2 to land planes? That seems to me to be a fairly easily countered move by the British on B2, if that is in fact the case. :?
That, plus the fact that the British have two ships to block Japanese naval moves down in that area as well. I’m not saying the Japanese can’t take India on J3, just that it would seem to me that in order to do that, the Japanese would have to rush right by the DEI.
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I’m not saying the Japanese can’t take India on J3, just that it would seem to me that in order to do that, the Japanese would have to rush right by the DEI.
That’s just it. Sure, the Japs could take India J3, I suppose, but is that really optimal? I’m not convinced that faster is always better.
My last game I let India live for a while (kept it contained - building 1-2 infantry per turn) and crushed it when I had much higher odds. I won in J9 by taking New South Wales and India at the same time. I know India’s worth 8 per turn, but otherwise, I don’t see the rush, when India can’t go anywhere, do anything, or collect much money.
And back to the original question of the post - I can’t imagine waiting to attack, as Japan, so right there the game is “broken” in that I don’t see a hard choice, deciding whether to attack J1, J2, J3. All those DoW rules and such are lost on me, because I always attack J1. You can sink every transport on the board except one by WUS, so why not? USA + 40 is not enough of a deterrent.
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I’m not saying the Japanese can’t take India on J3, just that it would seem to me that in order to do that, the Japanese would have to rush right by the DEI.
That’s just it. Sure, the Japs could take India J3, I suppose, but is that really optimal? I’m not convinced that faster is always better.
My last game I let India live for a while (kept it contained - building 1-2 infantry per turn) and crushed it when I had much higher odds. I won in J9 by taking New South Wales and India at the same time. I know India’s worth 8 per turn, but otherwise, I don’t see the rush, when India can’t go anywhere, do anything, or collect much money.
And back to the original question of the post - I can’t imagine waiting to attack, as Japan, so right there the game is “broken” in that I don’t see a hard choice, deciding whether to attack J1, J2, J3. All those DoW rules and such are lost on me, because I always attack J1. You can sink every transport on the board except one by WUS, so why not? USA + 40 is not enough of a deterrent.
Oh hell, I forgot Japan gets an extra 5 IPCs for India, is that right?
Anyway, I think the J2 & J3 options might be there for the Japanese to set up a KAF strat, or something along those lines. I think it’s kinda neat, keeps the game from stagnating into the same ole’, same ole’ all the time. :-)
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Mabey it all depends on who is playing as japan :?
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@Open:
Mabey it all depends on who is playing as japan :?
I have the sneaking feeling that in this game, Japan isn’t going to be able to do everything it wants to, all the time.
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With this strategy, what should the UK build? Infantry to delay or planes to escape death and fight on?
Also, for Britain, I would pull out of Singapore and move that whole force to Shan State. The British & ANZAC could take Siam turn 2, giving the ANZAC player a crucial 5 point bonus if they are able to move their infantry into Siam. The British are also in a position to attack French Indochina on B2 as well. At the very least, they are in a position to deny Burma to Japan on turn 2.
/b]Can’t Japan hit that with 2 inf and 5-10 planes? Then all the infantry die and japan only loses a few planes.
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Can’t Japan hit that with 2 inf and 5-10 planes? Then all the infantry die and japan only loses a few planes.
Japan can do damn near anything it wants to in this game, and those troops can be whacked in Singapore just as easily as in Shan State; if that’s what the Japanese player wants to do.
My thinking on that particular move, and it really depends on the game situation, is that on J1, Japan may have taken the PI and possibly Java. If that is the case after J1, then one could deduce that the Japanese player may be contemplating trying to go for the other three DEI islands with it’s three transports on J2.
If Japan has decided on squashing the garrison in Singapore, moving the troops, or not moving them isn’t going to make much difference. It’s possible, that by evacuating Singapore, that the Japanese may be satisfied with it’s occupation and not concern themselves with chasing down it’s retreating defenders right at that moment. Again, if the Japanese were targeting Singapore though, it really doesn’t make much difference.
If the Japanese weren’t targeting Singapore right off, and were looking more at the DEI, then by just allowing the troops to sit in Singapore just means that the Japanese will get around to stomping them in their own good time. Whereas moving them might allow them to take up either an opportunity into Siam or Vietnam, or at the very least a chance to fall back on India. Possibly also denying the Japanese Burma at a key moment.
The two Japanes troops that start out in Siam, sometimes one of them will take Vietnam on J1, then that troop will be needed to counter-attack into the Chinese territory with the Burma road on J2. That could leave British troops in Shan State with a chance to attack Siam or Vietnam.
Just a thought on trying to do something with those troops as opposed to having them sit there and get steamrolled game after game. :-)
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I haven’t played the game that much and I believe that a J1 could make a strong opening. On the other hand I don’t think that the game is “broken” and there are some downsides to this tactic. If the ANZAC are under siege of the japanese, what is stopping the US from send a hell load of aircraft (bombers) in combination with there fleet towards the Japanese? If the Japanese want to attack mutiple targets like the UK “fleet”, the sub/transport of the DEI and Hawai there fleet is scattered and are easy pickings for the ANZAC fighters and US planes. The British could team up with the Chinese and counter attack the Japanese in the Asian main land.
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Well, it’s looking pretty good that I’ll be heading back out Dayton-way for another 15-18 hour AAP:40 game session on the 21st. We’ll (Buckeyeboy & I ) get a chance to see if the Americans can get an effective strategy going against Japan.
I also realized that in some of my posts here in this thread, that I was incorrectly calling the Marianas the Marshall islands! :-o
Hell, I’ve been watching the HBO series The Pacific the past 5 weeks now, and I can’t wait to get another game session going! You here that TA!?! :lol:
We thought the game was probably going to be balanced when we were just starting the Allied strategy I’ve been going on about in this thread, when we decided to try the J1 attack deal. We thought the J1 attack was some mystical super attack, but it turns out to be basically the same as the J2 or J3 attack, as far as Allied strategy goes.
So next Wednesday, we’ll get back to basics with the Allies, although we do like the J1 attack the best for them. At least, I think it’s the best Japanese turn to attack. What say you there, TA?
I guess I’ll find out Wednesday. 8-)
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