Movement is still simultaneous, and by eliminating the vague wording from before of needing a warship in that seazone, there is no leapfrogging possible. You’re moving 6 unaccompanied transports through on the same phase (combat move). 5 of them are getting shot at. If you move another 6 through on noncombat, 5 of them are getting shot at. It doesn’t matter which move point or if there are multiple paths or groups: 6 unaccompanied transports find themselves in the enemy subs’ seazone. 5 are getting shot at. Just like Kamikazees, the firing occurs after the combat move is finalized, but before the combat phase occurs. You can’t adjust as you go based on how severly the subs slaughtered your transports.
I agree with that. Don’t actually roll for the attacks, while moves are still being made. Note which transports moved through a particular sea zone unaccompanied, then make a single attack roll against all of them. It’s really not going to be a big deal keeping this straight. Players are going to make sure their transports are accompanied most of the time. You might have a few unaccompanied moves through sub infested waters per game, tops.
This is the rule from AA40P page #30 (thought it might help)
Does Not Block Enemy Movement:
_The “stealth” ability of subs also allows enemy ships to ignore their presence. Any sz that contains only enemy subs does not stop the movement of a sea unit. Sea units ending their combat movement in a sz containing only enemy subs may choose to attack them or not. Sea units can also end their noncombat movement in a sz containing only enemy subs."
There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at the transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."_
This is the Q & A from the Unofficial Errata/FAQ on the subject from 1-26-2010 (soon to be out dated)
Q. Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”. Under exactly what conditions do friendly surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A. A surface warship that starts its movement along with one or more transports and moves with them will prevent sub attacks. Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.
If you notice in the answer part it sounds like the tpt and SW Ship roles are reversed, giving extra movement to the tpt. The SW Ship doesn’t need to start its move w/tpt, the tpt needs to start its movement w/SW Ship. (This should be pulled it makes things even more confusing)
This is the last Q & A Krieghund posted, I’m not sure if it is totally replacing the above Q & A, or is in addition to it.
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2010, 05:46:09 pm »
OK, we’re taking this thing in a different direction:
Q. Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”. Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A. In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.
From reading post from everyone, I’m getting confused as to what is rule and what is conjecture.
Krieghund will you clarify please?*
If a tpt will either move into or pass through a sz containing a sub, and it moved by itself (unescorted) prior to the sub sz, or after it left it, the sub is eligible to fire its one shot @ 2, even if the unescorted move was 2 sz away from the subs sz.
If a tpt is escorted properly into the sz containing a sub to preform an ampib (tpt is staying), but its only escort is moving on to the next sz for an attack, is the tpt safe from the sub. It was accompanied through all its moves. Seems if you abandon it though it should not be safe.
Is this line from the 1-26-Errata still in the running:
Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.
Why I ask is if you bring in a SW Ship to attack the sub, and it submerges you would have a SW Ship in the sz (that can’t move). It would be doing the same thing (patrol) as the above statement. This shouldn’t prevent attack in the CM phase (the combat/patrol took place after CM phase), but should offer protection afterwords in the non CM phase base on the same principle as above.
The way you want tpt protected at all times I think its probably (a), but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.
@WILD:
From reading post from everyone, I’m getting confused as to what is rule and what is conjecture.
Krieghund will you clarify please?*
The rules are what is in the rulebook and this FAQ:
Q. Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”. Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A. In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.
@WILD:
- Is this line from the 1-26-Errata still in the running:
Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.
No.
The idea is that a warship that accompanies the transport for its entire move is escorting it. In any other case, it just happens to be in the same sea zone, so it affords no protection.
Sound’s good ,I think this rule helps make the sub’s historical threat real, you really didn’t move TR’s around the Pacific unaccompanied during WWll.
Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?
Well, the FAQ and Errata change every week, so its no point in guessing, you will always win since you edit the rules.
Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?
My guess is that a sub can make this special attack once in the combat move phase and once in the non-combat move phase.
A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement.
Normally “either/or” is used to emphasize that only one of two things is possible, not both. And here, could be taken to be a reference to when the sub can attack. However in this case, my guess is it is being used to emphasize that it doesn’t matter which type of movement the transport is making, and is not being used to restrict the number of opportunities the sub can have to make this special attack against an unaccompanied transport.
Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?
My guess is that a sub can make this special attack once in the combat move phase and once in the non-combat move phase.
A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement.
Normally “either/or” is used to emphasize that only one of two things is possible, not both. And here, could be taken to be a reference to when the sub can attack. However in this case, my guess is it is being used to emphasize that it doesn’t matter which type of movement the transport is making, and is not being used to restrict the number of opportunities the sub can have to make this special attack against an unaccompanied transport.
Ok we seem to be loading up on the sub gets one shot @ 2 in each of the 2 move phases (combat, and non combat). It gets this ability in each enemies turn (as long as it is deemed the tpt(s) was unescorted at some point).
Clue us in here Krieghund, is this the intent of the rule?
Thanks WB
Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?
Well, the FAQ and Errata change every week, so its no point in guessing, you will always win since you edit the rules.
How about this Razor, stop being so negative. The Errata is NOT OFFICIAL, therefore work to help make the wording solid and airtight so that is can stand the test of time when is it does become official.
Thanks, Ryx.
The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon. Anybody else see that?
Yes, it seems to give the sub a similar treatment to AA guns. Every time a tpt goes by, it get a shot. Just like every time an AA is attacked by air, it shoots. Theoretically, a sub could fire numerous times in one complete round of play.
Thanks, Ryx.
The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon. Anybody else see that?
Yes, that’s why it was the third option. But, it seems to not quite fit with idea of all movement being considered to take place at the same time.
Yes, it seems to give the sub a similar treatment to AA guns. Every time a tpt goes by, it get a shot. Just like every time an AA is attacked by air, it shoots. Theoretically, a sub could fire numerous times in one complete round of play.
If it does work like AA guns- two things bother me
Thanks, Ryx.
The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon. Anybody else see that?
If it does work more like AA guns then,
Ok I see each sub could get multiple shots in each phase. Not sure why you emphasized each group though. It almost makes it sound like if you bring in a group of unescorted tpt’s (3) together, you might only get one shot at the group as a whole, instead of at each tpt in the group (which I think is the intent).
Some things that may help:
Swap out a few words in the orig rule:
There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at the transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."
There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in both combat and noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at each unescorted transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."
I think we now understand when a tpt is considered to be escorted or not (although I still think many people may miss part of this).
Now we are starting to see the intent is for a sub to be able to fire multiple shots in the 2 move phases. I know its a pain to go back in and swap out a few words in the orig rules text, but it would make it easier to get the full intent of the rule.
@WILD:
Ok I see each sub could get multiple shots in each phase. Not sure why you emphasized each group though. It almost makes it sound like if you bring in a group of unescorted tpt’s (3) together, you might only get one shot at the group as a whole, instead of at each tpt in the group (which I think is the intent).
No, the intent is that each sub gets one shot at each transport group. There’s safety in numbers.
We can’t change the rulebook at this point. Any changes will need to be made to the FAQ.
@WILD:
Ok I see each sub could get multiple shots in each phase. Not sure why you emphasized each group though. It almost makes it sound like if you bring in a group of unescorted tpt’s (3) together, you might only get one shot at the group as a whole, instead of at each tpt in the group (which I think is the intent).
No, the intent is that each sub gets one shot at each transport group. There’s safety in numbers.
We can’t change the rulebook at this point. Any changes will need to be made to the FAQ.
Ok I was wrong again (I’m starting to get used to it).
So the sub rule doesn’t work like an AA gun would. You only get only one shot at the entire group of transports as a whole.
I have to ask if you have a single tpt coming in from one direction, and a group of transports (3) coming in from a different direction. Would that be considered two groups (2 shots), or would you consider all tpt’s involved as one group (allowing only 1 shot). Keeping in mind all transports involved were not escorted, and all movement was in the same movement phase.
But there’s lethality in numbers too. So each sub in the sz gets one shot at the transport group…. right?
I believe each sub (in said sz) would get its shot at each group of transports (one shot per group).
I’m not sure if you keep each so called group separate for shooting purposes (each sub could fire multiple shots at different groups in the same move phase) or if you consider all tpt’s as one group in that move phase for shooting rights (one shot).
I’m not going to say which way I’m leaning this time!!! :roll:
@WILD:
I believe each sub (in said sz) would get its shot at each group of transports (one shot per group).
I’m not sure if you keep each so called group separate for shooting purposes (each sub could fire multiple shots at different groups in the same move phase) or if you consider all tpt’s as one group in that move phase for shooting rights (one shot).
I’m not going to say which way I’m leaning this time!!! :roll:
If subs fire at each group, then I think each sub has one roll per group. So if you have enemy subs in a seazone it’s an amazingly bad idea to send one transport through - statistically, it’ll die a horrible horrible death as three subs fire on it. But if 5 transports get through then 2 are guaranteed to get through, and 1 to 2 are probably sinking. I’m somewhat surprised it isn’t more limited where one sub has one shot per phase, but this makes the sub very threatening, which is really as it should be.
I’m glad I came back to this…one shot per GROUP? Ok, wrap my head around another new concept. Does the submarine pick its target or does the defender (needs to be asked since I thought it was like an AA gun)? And just to clarify, the wording in the FAQ does NOT say to me a sub can fire once on a GROUP of transports, but that a GROUP of transports can be protected by one surface warship.
And I would think a group would be defined as a group of transports that crossed a common border. So, if 2 transports enter the sub’s zone from the north and 2 enter from the south, that is two groups of 2 each.
@Col.:
Does the submarine pick its target or does the defender (needs to be asked since I thought it was like an AA gun)?
The player moving the transports removes one transport for each hit scored. That’s in the book and the faq answer didn’t change it.
What’s the definition of a Group?
Lets say 6 Transports decide to move through a sub’s sea zone unaccompanied. They all start in SZ-A, move together into SZ-B which contains the sub, 3 of the transports now move to SZ-C and 3 move to SZ-D.
Moving out of a sub’s sea zone doesn’t trigger this special attack, only moving into or through.
Was this really one group that became two groups, or was it considered to be two groups from start to finish?
How about?
3 transports start in SZ-X, move to SZ-A which contains 3 more transports, they all move together into SZ-B which contains the sub, 3 of the transports now move to SZ-C and the other 3 stay in the sea zone with the sub.
A group is a set of transports whose movements start and end in the same sea zones. Here’s what we’re looking at now:
Q. Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”. Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A. In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships. Each transport or group of transports that is not escorted will be fire upon once by each sub in the sea zone.
