Axis and Allies first turns - Germany

[newpaintbrush]

What Germany does is really very dependent on what Russia did on its turn.

If Russia moved units towards India, and moved everything else east, the Allies are probably going to be going after Japan first.  (Not certainly, but maybe).

If Russia  built naval units in the Mediterranean, Germany might be well advised to sink that fleet before it got any stronger – or conversely, to ignore it and build lots of tanks to put pressure on Moscow quickly.

And so forth.

Usually, Germany and Japan should both focus on Moscow, while attempting to prevent the Allies from taking complete control of the Atlantic or Pacific.  In some cases, though, attacking the United Kingdom or the United States is better.

More to follow.

[Nix]

If Russia  built naval units in the Mediterranean, Germany might be well advised to sink that fleet before it got any stronger – or conversely, to ignore it and build lots of tanks to put pressure on Moscow quickly.

if russia does this it´s an instant win for Axis.  (just pointing this out if any new players look at this)

[Jennifer]

Sure, leave us hanging.

My weak point is, and always has been (even in Classic) Germany.

However, I think Germany should take Karelia and liberate Belorussia/Ukraine if taken by Russia.  Taking Egypt is paramount, if you don’t have a strong case for Egypt, take Trans-Jordan, but allowing the British fleet into teh Med is an absolute no-no!

Yea, if RUSSIA goes all out against Japan it’s almost a guarentee for the Axis.  If America and England go primarily against Japan (minimal to reclaim Africa to save income) it’s almost a guarentee win for the Allies.

[newpaintbrush]

@Nix:

If Russia  built naval units in the Mediterranean, Germany might be well advised to sink that fleet before it got any stronger – or conversely, to ignore it and build lots of tanks to put pressure on Moscow quickly.

if russia does this it´s an instant win for Axis.  (just pointing this out if any new players look at this)

Or is it?

Dun dun dun!

Well, okay, it probably is . . .  very probably . . . almost certainly . . .

[Nix]

good to hear you admit it  :-P  :mrgreen:

[newpaintbrush]

@Nix:

good to hear you admit it  :-P  :mrgreen:

(with cookie crumbs around mouth)

I admit nothing!

[newpaintbrush]

What Germany has the options of doing also largely depend on what, if any, preplaced bid was allowed.

–

German buys:

12 infantry, 1 artillery
1 aircraft carrier, 8 infantry
1 aircraft carrier, 3 infantry, 3 tanks
8 tanks
5 infantry 5 tanks
10 infantry 1 fighter
5 infantry 1 tank 2 fighters
4 fighters
2 tech dice (Rockets) 10 infantry
2 transports, 8 infantry
2 transports, 3 infantry, 3 tanks
3 transports, 2 infantry, 2 tanks
3 transports, 4 infantry, 1 artillery
8 tech dice (Long Range Aircraft, but this for Out Of the Box German Sea Lion only)

The 12 infantry / 1 artillery bid has the Germans pressing east, with not a lot of pressure on G2 (because of the poor mobility of the G1 placed infantry and artillery), but with added pressure G3 onwards, with constant infantry/artillery reinforcements backed up by Germany’s existing tank arsenal, plus some round four or five (or whenever, really) all-tank buys to press in on Moscow.  This plan requires careful coordination with Japan, so neither Germany nor Japan overextend themselves early (if Germany pushes rapidly into Russia, the Russians can attack then retreat in time to defend against Japan; if Germany and Japan press on Russia in a coordinated attack, Russia cannot respond against both pressures simultaneously).  Germany may choose to build Southern Europe transports around round four or five (or whenever, really) to help put pressure on Africa and/or Ukraine/Caucasus.

Aircraft carrier/8 infantry.

This approach attempts to stall the Allies out in the Pacific; a German carrier placed in the Baltic probably prevents the Axis from attacking the German Baltic fleet for quite some time, while Germany marches towards Moscow.  Again, because of poor mobility of G1 placed units, Russia can get an early lead, but Russia has to run when the G1 produced infantry come to the front.  The carrier is also useful for giving aircraft additional range, either for hunting Allied ships in the Atlantic, or for invading London.

Aircraft carrier/3 infantry/3 artillery.

Stalls the Allies out in the Pacific, while putting pressure on Russia early.  Germany will find it difficult to maintain the attack with so few infantry reinforcements produced on G1 (just trading Belorussia, Ukraine, and Karelia with USSR uses 6 infantry each turn)

8 tanks.

Probably best used only after a very reckless or unlucky Russian first turn.  Germany tries to quickly exploit the Russian casualties.

5 infantry 5 tanks.  Sort of like 12 infantry 1 artillery, but with a more aggressive approach.

10 infantry 1 fighter.  For when Germany anticipates a long drawn out battle in the Atlantic; the early German fighter lets Germany have an easier time trading territories with Russia, while also providing additional defense against Allied Atlantic navy.

5 infantry 1 tank 2 fighters.  For when Germany anticipates trading a lot of territories with Russia and a lot of action in the Atlantic.

4 fighters.  For German domination of the Atlantic.

2 tech dice (Rockets) 10 infantry.  For a protracted game, particularly one in which it looks like the Allies will attempt an Indian industrial complex.

2 transports, 8 infantry.  Transports placed in Baltic to act as added protection for the Baltic fleet.  The transports also threaten London (along with German air.

2 transports, 3 infantry, 3 tanks.  Much like the previous

3 transports, 2 infantry, 2 tanks.  Also much like the previous.
3 transports, 4 infantry, 1 artillery.  Yet again, much like the previous,

8 tech dice (Long Range Aircraft, but this for Out Of the Box German Sea Lion only)

If tech goes into effect immediately, Germany can attempt to win with fighters and bombers from around Europe, and the Baltic transport for immediate capture of London before the UK turn.  Usually, this leaves the German air force very weakened, and Germany has a hard time maintaining control of London.

[Axis4life]

There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe.  I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well.  I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony.  It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.

[DarthMaximus]

Lots o Options.  :-)

I didn’t see this:

10 inf, 2 arm.

Also

7 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm.  (or 8 inf, 3 arm save 1)

Basically, mixes of what you already had listed, but IMO much stronger long term then a 5-5 buy, because you are able to get a few more inf and with existing tanks, you should only need another 1 or 2 to make sure Russia can’t move heavy to Ukr on R2.  Likewise, some extra Russian casualties in Rd 1 or 2 and you may be able to move to Ukr (to hold) on G2, with the extra “3’s” but you’ll still have enough inf to deter an early WE or EE Allied landing.

[Guest]

In your notes on the 12 INF, 1 ART G1 purchase…
Germany is not likely to be able to do a G4 or G5 TRN purchase in the Med.  If the 12/1 build is followed up correctly by Germany and not sqaundered, then the Med is going to be a dead zone to Germany with any built TRNs immediately sunk, and Africa lost early.  Indeed with this build Germany may be better off evacuating Africa once the initial Suez closing move is completed in Egypt… but that depends on the UK and/or USA T2 moves…

[newpaintbrush]

@Axis4life:

There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe. I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well. I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony. It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.

Yeah, that Western Europe IC is extremely useful against the Allied Atlantic navy.  But I think it’s pretty damn risky for G1, because you’re sinking 31 IPCs on an anti-Atlantic purchase, leaving Germany horribly weak against the Russians, and AFTER the allies see the AC and IC, they can just go KJF anyways, starting with a UK IC in India on UK1 and a US IC in Ssinkiang on US2, followed by 4 inf to Ssinkiang on USSR2.  A four fighter build ALSO leaves the Germans horribly weak against the Russians for infantry count, but at least the fighters can be used against ground targets.  It’s difficult to use that Western Europe IC for anything else but defense, and I think that a quick offense, or at least a balance of offense and defense, is best for Germany.

The thing is, if you DO want an IC in Western Europe, a G1 buy is potentially far stronger (when combined with a German Med fleet moving west).  The Baltic fleet and the Mediterranean fleet can unite, and additional naval units built, making Germany’s Atlantic fleet nearly invincible.  But I think that it is not a good idea to try a G1 AC/IC, because of the fact that the Allies can respond so strongly and quickly to a G1 AC/IC build.

@DarthMaximus:

Lots o Options. :-)

I didn’t see this:

10 inf, 2 arm.

Also

7 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm. (or 8 inf, 3 arm save 1)

Basically, mixes of what you already had listed, but IMO much stronger long term then a 5-5 buy, because you are able to get a few more inf and with existing tanks, you should only need another 1 or 2 to make sure Russia can’t move heavy to Ukr on R2. Likewise, some extra Russian casualties in Rd 1 or 2 and you may be able to move to Ukr (to hold) on G2, with the extra “3’s” but you’ll still have enough inf to deter an early WE or EE Allied landing.

Quite right on both counts.  I also agree that those are both stronger than a 5-5 buy.

However, I disagree with categorically using an early infantry buy to deter WE landings.  I often prefer to march all my G1 produced infantry east immediately, and move some tanks into W. Europe, so I have something like 2-3 inf, 2+ tanks, and 4 fighters.  Around G3, I start moving the tanks east, and start moving infantry west.

I’m saving my comprehensive strategy writeup for after Larry releases the Deluxe version of Axis and Allies (with a finalized ruleset w00t) http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=27

@ncscswitch:

In your notes on the 12 INF, 1 ART G1 purchase…
Germany is not likely to be able to do a G4 or G5 TRN purchase in the Med. If the 12/1 build is followed up correctly by Germany and not sqaundered, then the Med is going to be a dead zone to Germany with any built TRNs immediately sunk, and Africa lost early. Indeed with this build Germany may be better off evacuating Africa once the initial Suez closing move is completed in Egypt… but that depends on the UK and/or USA T2 moves…

Why shouldn’t Germany be able to do a G4-G5 TRN purchase?

Why will the Med be a dead zone to Germany?

Why hsould any built TRNs immediately be sunk?

Why should Africa be lost early?

What are the Allied moves that result in those results?

[Jennifer]

@Axis4life:

There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe.  I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well.  I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony.  It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.

Yea, and if I remember right (it was long ago) I won 2 out of 3 games with this open.  But it allowed Russia to collect almost 40 IPC for a couple of rounds before I pushed them back. (It ended up Kill England First cause I had the transports and fighters to do it.)

[Mork Far]

I’ve always enjoyed alot of tanks, with the occasional bomber to raid russias IC’s

as iv’e played (with fairly unproductive opponents in my opinion) germany will hold off russia for a few turns. and invade UK if opportunity presents itself( once had him attack with all of his planes, which he had been constantly purchasing, and a mass majority of them died in AA then the rest from r1 of combat  :-D)  meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz  through russia slowly crippling. also slowly crippling US (not able to invade germany due to threat by me :-) )  so on and so forth.

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

@Axis4life:

There is also an AC, IC, 3 Inf purchase to help establish a naval defense against an allied invasion of Western Europe. I’ve done it once with great success, I have read that Jennifer has used this as well. I haven’t used it again so I am not sure whether or not it is a one trick pony. It is fun to watch the allies scratch their heads in wonder.

Yea, and if I remember right (it was long ago) I won 2 out of 3 games with this open. But it allowed Russia to collect almost 40 IPC for a couple of rounds before I pushed them back. (It ended up Kill England First cause I had the transports and fighters to do it.)

I can see that AC/IC could work for Germany, but I think only if the Allies let it.

Do you think that AC/IC for Germany is a viable first turn purchase?

–

@Mork:

I’ve always enjoyed alot of tanks, with the occasional bomber to raid russias IC’s

as iv’e played (with fairly unproductive opponents in my opinion) germany will hold off russia for a few turns. and invade UK if opportunity presents itself( once had him attack with all of his planes, which he had been constantly purchasing, and a mass majority of them died in AA then the rest from r1 of combat :-D) meanwhile J1 attack hawaii and exapand in mainland, J2 attack and conquer East US and continue expansion in mainland. J3 invade russia with tanks and planes(get his 4 xtra units out of the way first) then blitz through russia slowly crippling. also slowly crippling US (not able to invade germany due to threat by me :-) ) so on and so forth.

I note that you mentioned that you believed you had fairly unproductive opponents.  Frankly, if the US player lost Eastern US on J2, they are not “unproductive”, unless by “unproductive”, you mean horribly bad.  The only reason for losing even Western US on J2 would be the destruction of at least three of Japan’s battleships and carriers, plus fighters and transports, plus retake from Central US or Western Canada or Mexico on the following turn.

[Jennifer]

Paint:

You have to know your allied opponent.  However, I can tell you with 100% certainty that without cheating, you cannot win with an IC/AC purchase broken into two rounds if both rounds occur before Round 5.  :)

In other words, if you do it, it has to be turn 1 and it has to be in the same round.  From there, you can build a transport or submarine a round and lock SZ 7 or SZ 6 from Allied incursion, force them to spend a lot on navy (I have found you need 65% the investment to defend a sea zone then take it.) which all slows down 72 IPCs worth of crud getting in your way of crushing Russia. (30 for England, 42 for America.)

[DarthMaximus]

I don’t think the AC/IC is that viable, in terms of something you’d want to use in a lot of games.

As Jen said, I suppose if you know your opponent, that is one thing.
I’d like to think it could work, but I really can’t see how a good Allied player doesn’t sink the fleet in Sz 7 (unless Ger drops down another 2 or 3 ships) in rd 2 OR how Russia doesn’t become a super power.  I mean Russia earning 40, yikes.  You should be able to take Balk with that.

Getting to UK, I think is a long shot, but should be the focus, since Russia will be an early monster.

If you only add ONE other sea unit in rd 2, you’ll lose the fleet on a combined UK-US attack.  Meanwhile Russia will be stacked heavy in Ukr.

If you bring over the med BB, trn, with the sz 8 sub to Gib (on G1), you might be able to hold the fleet a lot longer but you’ll see a UK counter in Egy for sure and then a Possible UK landing in SE/Balk on UK 2-3, or UK reinforcing Ukr as Russia take Balk forcing Germany to defend both SE or Ger.

If you add 2 or more naval units on G2, again Russia should be able to force the issue at Balk quite quickly.

But if you want to go after UK, wouldn’t it be better to just buy 3-4 trns on G1 or 1 AC and 2 trns?  Basically it is the same cost without locking into an IC in WE.
At least here you could get the trns to the Med where they could be of use as well.

[Nix]

with 4 bid, buy a Dst, trn, BB.  BB, trn med, Dsts z5.

Attack SZ13 with BB, 2ub, figs, take egypt as usual (kill dst with 1 fig, 1 bmb) egypt with 2 inf, 2 arm, 1 fig.

This depends of course on russias opening, but can do for the most times.

[Jennifer]

THat’s exactly it, DM.  You have to know your opponent.  How he thinks, what you can leave as a picket and what he will attack with.  Is he afraid of AA Guns, cocky?  Careless?  Conservative?

But with two full rounds of German investments into W. Europe/SZ 7 you can create a wall in Germany/S. Europe, stage enough infantry/Armor in W. Europe and get a massive fleet there by round 3 to take England.

But yes, you most likely give E. Europe, Norway, Ukraine, Belorussia, Balkans and W. Russia to Russia.

And the more I think about it, the more I think leaving Egypt to the Egyptians might not be a bad idea, unless you can take it with african Ground forces. (Yes, that means a bid in N. Africa.)  Use the transport to take Gibraltar and stage your fleet there.

Buy turn 3 you should have 6 Transports, 3 Submarines, 1 AC, 1 BB, 1 DD, 5 or 6 Fighters, 1 Bomber and 12 ground units to hit England with.

[newpaintbrush]

I think it’s like this - if you lead with pawn to king four, and your opponent responds with king’s knight pawn to king’s knight four, it’s not really that you know your opponent.  It’s that your opponent made a bad move.

Taking England on round 3 is not possible against a skilled Allied opponent.

[Jennifer]

Maybe, but how many resources have you forced the Allies to commit compared to how much of your own have you committed?  And if they screw up, you’re ready to pounce.