Good way of delaying Japan/getting Japan under some cheap pressure.

[AndreasI]

A while since I been here and I’m not sure if this move has been discussed before, at least I didn’t find it.

To begin with this is not a move to actually threaten Japan seriously just a way to either force them make some tough decisions and I would like some feedback on what you would do as Japan. I have avoided to include purchases as I feel these moves could be made in conjunction with several strategies.

Russian turn has a few moves that is important to make.
1. Putting the 6 infantry in the eastern areas in Buryatia.
2. Moving the MOS fig to the UK carrier of India.
3. Moving 2 inf (pref. from Kaz to Persia).
4. Hit West Russia with 8/9inf, 1art, 1/2arm.
5. Hit Ukr with 3inf, 1art, 1fig and 2/3 arm. The goal is to kill at least the infantry. Top scenario is to just leave the fighter alive and then pull back to CAU with the tanks.

Germanys matter doesn’t matter that much at this point for this particular move so on to the UK move where I will just explain the moves in Asia.

1. Move the entire UK fleet of Indias coast in position outside Kwangtung (SZ 59) and attack with 2inf and the fig from the carrier.
2. Move Aussie TRN to SZ 46 and the Sub should attack the Solomon sub.

Now the sea combat (59) should normally be won without any losses. I am hoping to remove 2 infantry from Kwangtung at the same time I loose my both infantry but fig stays alive. Always withdraw the fighter if thats the only unit left regardless of oppositon left in Kwangtung and land it on the carrier.

What have hopefully been accomplished is the loss of some Jap mainland infantry, which I feel is really important to their ability to march against Russia. The Jap player also faces some decisions. If everything goes according to plan you should have 5 units in SZ 59 with the rolls of 1,3,3,4,4. To attack this the Jap player would have to focus some serious firepower against this fleet. He would rather not have my planes defending for two turns. This makes it harder for him/her to allocate forces against the Hawaiian fleet and even though he could beat two, there are fairly good chances that he looses quite a number of units himself. I’d say he would actually be forced to hit the UK fleet, otherwise it either makes TRNs incredibly hard to place in Japan or leaving the fleet alive and given the opportuniy to join forces with the US and even use the 6inf in Bury to use on offense with the Russian fighter on the carrier.

If he allows the US fleet to live they will be ready to start hopping about in US turn 2 possibly reinforced with some UK tranny fodder and possibility to hit SZ 60 with Bomber and 2 figs for newly placed TRNs. This in combination with a factory in Sinkiang (with the lost infantry he really looses his ability to hit Sinkiang hard. And that’s only 15 spent IPCs. You still have 27 IPC to start building up the force to put pressure on Germany.

So, any ideas on the general idea or tips on how to improve it (or reasons why I should never ever ever do this :)?

Edit: And this assumes there is either no bid or at least no units places in any of these SZs or territories.

[Jennifer]

If you put a Russian fighter where I can kill it as Japan, I’ll kill it.  Yes, that means if I have to forgo hitting Pearl so I can bring more to bear just to kill the Ruskie fighter I will.  Russia needs her planes desperately to keep Germany at bay.

Also, if you have 6 Infantry in Bury there’s no reason the Japanese cannot eliminate your Eastern Wall by forgoing Pearl Harbor.

Actually, the more I’ve been playing revised, the more I’ve been realizing that Pearl is nice, but most Americans - even with the Pearl fleet, will ignore Japan so why bother?  It’s a full 4 Rounds away from Europe, that’s two rounds of stacking units in Novosibirsk for Russia if I sidestep Pearl.  And after 4 rounds, odds are Germany’s already been forced to capitulate the Atlantic, so what’s an extra carrier and a submarine???

[jsp4563]

By all means leave my US Pearl fleet intact, I’ll soon be knocking on Japan’s door.  :evil:

[mojo]

i do agree jenn i have left pearl alone to kill 6 ruskies in bury. i’ve never seen anybody land a russia fig off india, but if you do i will also kill it. the other 3 options are almost standard.  it’s either ukraine or belo. you can make a case for either.

[nooob]

if pear harbour is not attacked than on us2 there will be 3 stacked carrier’s, 1 bb, 1des, 2subs, 1 trns in solomon ils.

[AndreasI]

Jennifer and mojo, what would you do in that case? You said you would kill the Russian fighter if you got the opportunity as well as wanting to kill the infantry in Bury. So where would that leave you? Attacking 6 infantry with 2 infantry + planes only seems like a quite bad option to me, which leaves the option of using the Tranny and transport 2 units to the mainland (Arm/inf I suppose). Would you use bombardment as well, leaving BB out of naval combat, or rely on the strength of the invasion force?

I guess you’d have to send a minimum of 3 of your planes to this fight as well (and even then it would not take that much of bad luck for this fight to go in the pooper) and it’s hard to avoid all Jap inf getting killed no matter what you send. More planes would severely cripple your ability to kill:
1. British fleet with Russian fig
2. US China/UK Indian troops.
3. Pearl Harbor fleet.

Attacking Bury will probably not get you much closer to Moscow since most of the land units will be dead. As a result you can’t really start moving through the northern route at J3 (landing on J2 and you figure the rest). Even so you will need a decent force to move since it is not hard for the Russians to stop with little effort. 2inf, 1arm and the remaining fig will in most cases do just fine killing enough infantry to halt the progress.
If you decide to go China or India you have to allocate even more planes preventing them being used at sea. Attacking neither will make these territories another wasted turn if you decide to march onto Moscow middle/southern route.
The way I see it you either leave quite a lot of stuff alive while getting a few fairly certain victories or taking some chances that could be quite dangerous in the long run.

I’m not convinced this is a good move yet. Another option to this (which I actually think is better) is landing the fig in the same way but moving it to aid a Borneo attack instead. Moving DST to the Japan tranny would give you a defense of TRN, AC and 2 figs. Spreading out the aussie fleet (possibly sub vs sub and the TRN attacking New Guinea and you have a whole lot of targets too choose from.

[Guest]

Andreas,

This would be a J1 invasion of Bury, so you would be moving forward into Asia on J2.

The attack force on Bury would be:
3 INF (2 Manch, 1 Japan via TRN)
1 ARM (from Japan via TRN)
1 BB shot
1 FIG Japan
1 FIG Manch
1 FIG FIC
1 FIG Caroline AC
1 BOM Japan

You clear Bury with all AF alive, and on J2 you start the march on Moscow.

You end up with a Japan consolidated fleet in SZ60 and THEN counter the US fleet in J2.

[newpaintbrush]

“if pear harbour is not attacked than on us2 there will be 3 stacked carrier’s, 1 bb, 1des, 2subs, 1 trns in solomon ils.”

Where do you get two subs?  I can see the subs, yes, with UK moving Australian sub east, but that’s a fodder sub, not an attack sub.

Also, there should not be six fighters.  Four fighters, sure.  Six, no.

–

To the first post:  Basically, you sacrifice your Germany game to distract Japan.  Even then, Japan has the option of forgoing Pearl and smashing Russia quickly.  I’ve run into USSR Burytia defense before.  What I did was:

1.  Attack with Asian-based infantry AND the transport from Japan, giving 3-4 infantry plus heavy fighter cover, plus battleship support shot.  The Japanese infantry mostly die, but USSR’s power is completely wiped out.  The battleship doubles as an escort for Japanese transports, so fighters strafing the Japanese fleet from Pearl are much less of a problem.

2.  Kill UK fleet.  There really isn’t much else for all of Japan’s naval killing power to do.

If you parked the UK fleet in range of a Jap battleship, that UK fleet will get blown up in all likelihood.  If you went southwest of Australia, it takes forever to link up with the US fleet, and the Japs will probably start hunting the UK fleet in earnest on J2.  (The UK fleet should not survive).

With the listed move of UK fleet to Kwangtung and Russian fighter, that UK navy is not in good position.  Against 13344 (one Russian), I easily have 01133334.  That’s a free hit on my battleship, three fighters, a destroyer, and the battleship attack.  Which does not SEEM to be awful, but it is actually pretty bad.  Because A) I can attack and then retreat, taking a free hit on my battleship, B) I will still probably be in good position against China and Burytia with 3 fighters and 1 bomber, C) I can forgo Burytia for the already explained reason (Burytia can’t go far), and hit China with 2 fighters, adding a fighter and bomber to my attack, D) if Japan attacks and retreats, UK has nowhere to run, and can’t even counterattack effectively because of the Japanese battleship soaking up a hit (UK will probably lose transport and destroyer to attack, leaving carrier, fighter, and UK bomber, which is not good against battleship plus loaded carrier), E) because the Allied fleet is in hostile territory, it has no place to land fighters, so it must lose fighters BEFORE the carriers, or Japan can just pull out and watch the fighters splash into the ocean.

E) is not certain, but 2 inf 1 fighter vs 3 inf is NOT great odds to base fighter landings on.  And even if the fighters COULD land, they could be wiped out with if Japan simply took Kwangtung back first, or did any other number of horribly interesting moves.

–

Summary:

Immediately horrible position against Germany, with only one territory taken, and less German losses (barring a lucky attack in Ukraine), with additional losses in either West Russia (due to one tank less attacking per round), or Ukraine (due to unfavorable odds).  Loss of fighter means more forces must be committed to trade land with Germany.  Use of Indian transport against Kwangtung means Germany should have held Anglo-Egypt past UK1, which means German-held Africa.

Japan has the option either of 1) attacking Pearl Harbor anyways, in which case the Burytia infantry have to mostly retreat (anything on the coast will be completely obliterated on J2), so Russia can really only afford to leave 1-2 infantry on the coast.

Or Japan can go 2) attack with high likelihood of capturing Burytia, wipe out China, kill all UK navy.  UK navy may not be vulnerable, in which case Japan can consolidate its navy to ensure wiping out the UK navy on J2 or J3 (UK can flee, but then it can’t assist much in the Pacific battle until very late).  In this case, you have a strong Germany (as already described), and a strong Japan on the mainland.  Allied India is more resistant, but the fact is that that strength came from bleeding off Russia’s reserves.

All said, the moves in the first post are not necessarily horrible, but I also must say I do not see a clear gain for the Allies with those moves either.

[AndreasI]

Newpaintbrush: Just a few pointers to your response to your message.

First of all, using transport in the Bury fight will remove the “0” from the UK battle leaving you with one free hit and then removing offensive units. The forces you have picked out to attack would have an average first round of 3 hits thus making it likely for carrier/fighter to survive first round at the same time as the UK fleet has an average of 2,5 hits.
Of course the decision to either withdraw or wipe them out is heavily based on the results of the first roll but if you do decide to remove that fleet you would be leaving your units in SZ59. Also, using naval bombardment with the Bury attack makes it impossible to disrupt attacks and retreat to SZ60.

That leaves us with a BB and possibly a number of transports in SZ60. Buying offensive vessels with Japan is not an option as I would think that would make this strategy a success. With Pearl untouched I could go with at least of sub/carrier/3 fig against SZ60 which I would do without hesitating at all. Since you are committing all your possible forces in the combat phase there is a slight chance I could go with a bomber there as well and that would most likely kill of most of the transports (if not all) you might have purchased and that would be a heavy setback for Japan.

And I don’t see why it should be such a huge setback for the German progress. You still haven’t allocated any resources against Jap with neither UK nor US. The heaviest cost should be the Russian fighter, other than that it doesn’t take more than 2 additional infantry and possibly an armor to delay the Japanese from the northern route (where the Jap really doesn’t expand his IPC fast enough). By turn 4 it should be possible to start hammering the German territories quite heavily (with smaller landings the previous turns) and the question is if the Germans are far enough into Russia by then.

[U-505]

Well, it is kind of a setback for the Allies against Germany. Between Egypt being taken by Germany in round 1 and your attack on Kwang, the UK has only 3 inf in Asia and 1 inf in Africa. That’s paper thin. Germany will own the bulk of Africa for the next 3 or 4 turns and, with 1 fighter down and 6 inf in Bury, Russia won’t be able to spare the units to help keep Germany out of Africa.

I have had bad experiences with attacking Bury so I would avoid it even if the opportunity presented itself. Anything less than 4 fig, 1 bmb, 1 BB for support and the battle is too risky and that ends up leaving the China attack somewhat toothless. I would probably just try to draw the Allies out into my wheelhouse on the ground and just crush the UK fleet in sz59 and attack China solidly.

I am assuming the average results from UK1 (2 inf killed, 2 inf lost in Kwang/1 TP sunk without loss in sz59/ both subs miss in sz45, Japanese sub submerges).

I would attack China with all 5 remaining Asian inf and 1 bmb, 2 fig.

I would strafe sz59 with the East Indies fleet, 4 fig, the sz50 DD and the sz60 BB. Thats 2 BB, 1 CV, 1 DD, 4 fig. Most likely I would score 4 hits to your 2.5 hits. If you got lucky I’d lose a fighter( I’d save the DD in case the US decides to go into the Pacific. I can live with only 5 fighters). In the case of the sz45 SS being sunk, I’d hold back the DD and pull a fig from the China attack.

If you have a unit left it will probably be just the lone DD so I would then retreat back to sz60, land 2 units in FIC and move the SS to sz60 and the sz50 CV to sz36 with 2 fighters to protect the TP. Now, I’ve got your DD hemmed in between 2 fleets and the Solomans are threatened by the bulk of my fleet from sz60 to keep the US from moving there.

If I get lucky and clear sz59 on the first round of combat, I’d have the TP land units in FIC(if it is safe from attack) or join the fleet in sz59 and land in Kwang. The sz50 CV, 2 fig, and the sz45 SS would go to sz60 to protect my TP’s.

Either way, the India garrison and the Bury stack will be forced to retreat or get landed on by up to 8 ground units with air support next turn, and possible BB shots as well.

[cyan]

you can still come onto china pretty hard. 3inf(leaving 1 in indchina) + 2 figs(off the east indies car) Vs 2inf, 1fig
there a good chance that you’ll take it with 1 inf if not kill everything there. then you can send
3 INF (2 Manch, 1 Japan via TRN),1 ARM (from Japan via TRN),1 BB shot, 4fig(jp, man,fic, carolina) , and 1 bmb to that fight you end up with all your planes,the tank and possibly infs. a 80% chance of ending up wit the arm and the planes or better. then you move your entire navy to japan and the navy you have in the east indies goes to the Philippines with 2 figs on it.
so you end up with
japan sz- 2 Fig, 4 Tra, 1 Car, 1 Sub, 1 Des, 1 Bat
Philippines sz- 2 Fighters, 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Battleship
china- 1 inf
FIC- 1inf
Manchuria- 4figs
buryatia, 1arm, 1inf
then you can collect 33 ipcs for japan as usual then on J2 you can either attack the UK fleet or the American fleet.(depends if you go on the outside or inside of japan)

edit: accidentally put 2 carriers in japan.

[rjclayton]

I would prefer U-505’s strat to Cyan’s.  Here’s why.

In a non KJF game, Japan usually has very little resistance until it gets to Moscow (or Novisibirsk at least).  I would rather not squander my numerical superiority as Japan on marginal attacks (if you don’t take China you could be in trouble), particularly when I can force my opponent into a retreat the following round versus overwhelming odds.

Even when you succeed in marginal attacks, you almost always lose more inf in the attack than you would have if you had waited 1 turn and attacked with overwhelming force.  So you gain 2 more IPCs in production for one turn for winning the extra territory, but meanwhile you lose 1-2 more inf on the frontline (3-6 IPCs).  Are you really coming out ahead?  And what if the dice aren’t favourable?  Now you don’t even take the territory (because it was a marginal attack to begin with), plus you lose even more inf.  Definitely not coming out ahead on that one.

Bottom line, with Japan you don’t want to leave yourself open to any kind of attack, and just build up your forces can you can roll through to Moscow pretty much unopposed.

[cyan]

if you just leave china alone the us can be a nussiance US1. they can take FIC and march into hong kong. thats why you have to at least clear china out so really its more like 11 ipcs that in danger.  the can even kill whatever figs you have in man. thats why you have to destory chinese infantry or captur the terrotry.

[rjclayton]

Agree.  So rather than spread forces between China and Bury, in this instance I would focus on China, while strafing the UK fleet.  As U-505 said.

China + Bury + UK fleet is too much on J1.  IMHO.

[cyan]

you should not attack the uk flleet if you attack china and buyatia. the uk fleet is usless and you can attack it J2. the us flleet 2 can be handled on J2. if the us didn’t do  anything threating towards you can can attack teh british and then the americans.

[rjclayton]

I think both are viable options (ie. China + Bury vs. China + Uk fleet).  I would prefer to take out the UK fleet (and take out the russian fighter!).  The Bury stack is not very threatening in actuality (barely any reinforcements), and you can force it to retreat the following round anyway.

That would be my motivation for playing it that way.

[cyan]

if you use the china+fleet option you can always use 2 support shots on J2 in buryatia.  . the only problem is if the russians wise up and turn west.

[U-505]

Sure. But I would rather my opponents retreat on all fronts without firing a shot and have the flexibility to land my forces anywhere I want as opposed to having to commit ground units to a particular route and make them leave.

In this case, the Bury+China attacks are not an option. The sz59 fleet becomes priority. If you let it survive intact, and it is able to link up with the Hawaiian fleet in sz50 or sz58, then you not only have an ugly Allied fleet, that will be costly to crack, sitting in your living room but also the Russians will have a fighter to support their eastern front which makes them considerably more dangerous. Also, that fleet combined with the Australian infantry and TP means your high priced islands are now under immediate threat and all of those infantry are stuck defending when they should be on transports heading for Moscow.

To me, the China/sz59 attacks are the safe bet that also allows you the most options on J2.

[newpaintbrush]

@AndreasI:

Newpaintbrush: Just a few pointers to your response to your message.

First of all, using transport in the Bury fight will remove the “0” from the UK battle leaving you with one free hit and then removing offensive units. The forces you have picked out to attack would have an average first round of 3 hits thus making it likely for carrier/fighter to survive first round at the same time as the UK fleet has an average of 2,5 hits.
Of course the decision to either withdraw or wipe them out is heavily based on the results of the first roll but if you do decide to remove that fleet you would be leaving your units in SZ59. Also, using naval bombardment with the Bury attack makes it impossible to disrupt attacks and retreat to SZ60.

That leaves us with a BB and possibly a number of transports in SZ60. Buying offensive vessels with Japan is not an option as I would think that would make this strategy a success. With Pearl untouched I could go with at least of sub/carrier/3 fig against SZ60 which I would do without hesitating at all. Since you are committing all your possible forces in the combat phase there is a slight chance I could go with a bomber there as well and that would most likely kill of most of the transports (if not all) you might have purchased and that would be a heavy setback for Japan.

And I don’t see why it should be such a huge setback for the German progress. You still haven’t allocated any resources against Jap with neither UK nor US. The heaviest cost should be the Russian fighter, other than that it doesn’t take more than 2 additional infantry and possibly an armor to delay the Japanese from the northern route (where the Jap really doesn’t expand his IPC fast enough). By turn 4 it should be possible to start hammering the German territories quite heavily (with smaller landings the previous turns) and the question is if the Germans are far enough into Russia by then.

I presume you refer to the Kwangtung battle.  The “0” is not a transport.  Battleships in Axis and Allies Revised have two hit points, so take two hits to kill.  The “0” is the free hit from the battleship.  Leaving the Japanese navy in the middle of the ocean is not a problem, because any Allied attack will mean a lot of dead Allies, and maybe a dead Jap fighter.  The battleship used to attack Kwangtung is the one in the South Pacific.  I hope that clears things up.

I feel that I have explained in detail why there will be a considerable setback against Germany, particularly since it is NOT the case that " You still haven’t allocated any resources against Jap with neither UK nor US."  Your post stated that UK was going to attack Kwangtung.  That is serious resource allocation; allocation of your existing resources.  You also stated that you were NOT going to retake Anglo-Egypt.  You can use 2 inf 1 tank in Yakut if you want, but that’s even MORE drain against Germany, and you’ll be forced to retreat as soon as China falls anyways.  Finally, with the listed moves, it should not be a question of IF the Germans are far into Russia.  Without a Russian fighter to trade territories, and African-powered German industry, and Russian strength being bled off to the Japanese front, I believe that Germany being a good way into Russia is inevitable, UNLESS the German player really sucks horribly.

(edit) Look, I really hate this whole “It doesn’t cost you anything!”  Okay, I’m going to take EVERYTHING that Germany has and consolidate in Berlin.  That doesn’t cost me anything at all!

OR DOES IT

DUN DUN DUN

(/edit)

[ezto]

good way to delay japan is to play tradeoff with them in Ind (Uk), Yak (Rus), Sin (Us) with whatever inf is available. In the end he will beat you at tradeoffs, but its better than going to an arms race between Russia (getting somewhat pressure by Ger) and Japan. That will definately delay him/her.