Takes a few turns for a minor IC to be able to produce enough to counter survivors of 18inf. That assumes no reinforcements from Europe also.
UK can of course make it more expensive to take by sending units to Yunnan, but it really makes no sense when Japan can skip right around via TT due to the minor in FIC being in the same SZ as Malaya which you should be able to take on J4.
Different SZ - SZ37 off Malaya. SZ36 off FIC.
UK, ANZAC and US need to try hard to hold Malaya as long as possible. If it falls by J4 I would want to be able to take it back. ANZAC doesn’t lose its NO if Japan takes it and UK retakes it.
Note that USSR mobile units in Yunnan threaten Kwangtung as well as FIC. Mobile units in Yunnan are quite awesome against a lot of factories. None of them can be strongly defended and if India is threatened, they can get there in one turn.
UK can of course make it more expensive to take by sending units to Yunnan, but it really makes no sense when Japan can skip right around via TT due to the minor in FIC being in the same SZ as Malaya which you should be able to take on J4.
Different SZ - SZ37 off Malaya. SZ36 off FIC.
UK, ANZAC and US need to try hard to hold Malaya as long as possible. If it falls by J4 I would want to be able to take it back. ANZAC doesn’t lose its NO if Japan takes it and UK retakes it.
Note that USSR mobile units in Yunnan threaten Kwangtung as well as FIC. Mobile units in Yunnan are quite awesome against a lot of factories. None of them can be strongly defended and if India is threatened, they can get there in one turn.
Let me give you my J1 Opener for discussion then:
Buy:
2 TT, 1 Minor IC (Placed in Kiangsu)
DOW on Western Powers
Combat:
Load TT in SZ19 with 1 ART from Manchuria, 1 INF from Okinawa
Load TT in SZ20 with 1 ART, 1 INF from Kiangsi
Load TT in SZ6 with 1 ART from Japan, 1 INF from Korea
Send all 3 TT to SZ35, Declare Amphibious on Flip
Send 1 FTR/TAC from SZ33 to Attack Flip
Send all remaining warships to SZ33, excluding the 2 DD in SZ6 and the DD in SZ19
Move 2 INF, 1 ART from Jehol into Chahar
Move 1 MEC from Manchuria to Anhwe
Move 3 INF, 1 ART from Shantung to Anhwe
Move 2 INF from Kiangsu to Anhwe
Move 1 INF from Kiangsi to Hunan
Fly 2 FTR and 2 TAC from Manchuria to Hunan
Fly 1 FTR from Formosa to Hunan
Move 1 INF from Kiangsi to Kwangtung
Fly 1 FTR from Okinawa to Kwangtung
Fly 2 FTR and 2 TAC from SZ6 to Kwangtung
Fly 1 FTR and 2 TAC from Japan to Kwangtung
Move 3 INF, 1 ART from Kwangsi to Yunnan
Fly 1 FTR and 1 TAC from Kiangsu to Yunnan
Fly 2 SB from Japan to Yunnan
Move 2 INF from Siam to FIC
Sideboard Discussion
In order to do this, you have to accept that you will be trading FTR for territory. Specifically Kwangtung and Hunan. As Japan starts with a preponderance of aircraft, I feel that to maximize your opening move on a J1, you must be willing to trade aircraft for territory to save time by not having to stall your advance.
In addition, the overkill at Flip is to ensure there are enough ground units to load on TT to take Borneo and two DEI on J2. It also creates a very legitimate threat to Queensland as typically Japan is left with 4 or 5 units with the overkill present. It is a great deterrent for ANZAC against fortressing up Java because Japan can swing straight to Queensland. I never want to do this, but I want the threat to be present that I COULD.
Non-Combat:
Move 2 CV from SZ6 to SZ20
Land 2 FTR, 2 TAC from Kwangtung on the CV now in SZ20
Move 1 CV from SZ33 to SZ35
Land 1 FTR, 1 TAC from Flip on the CV now in SZ35
Move 1 DD from SZ19 to SZ36
Move 1 DD from SZ6 to SZ16
Move 3 INF from Korea to Manchuria
Move 1 FTR from Korea to Japan
Move 1 INF, 1 ART from Kiangsu to Kiangsi
Land all remaining aircraft operating in China on Kwangsi.
Second Sideboard Discussion
The DD in SZ36 is to block the bombard from a potential suicide mission against my stacked aircraft in Kwangsi. Yes, UK Pacific can still reach them with its aircraft and two ground units, but it sacrifices so much of its threat by doing so (losing a TT, BB, 2 FTR and 1 TAC). I’ve seen it done and Japan does lose a few planes, but typically UK at best limps home with a FTR or worse, gets diced out in a single round. The DD is simply a reminder of how expensive that decision could be for them, and I’m okay with sinking the UK fleet on J2 if they send the kitchen sink there.
Note that a DD is left in SZ6 as well as one blocking in SZ16. The US is able to send FTR from Hawaii to SZ6 and sink the transports you are about to place there and then move its fleet from SZ10 to SZ7 to land them. Being able to scramble 2 FTR over a DD ensures that is a bad idea and secures that TT purchase. The 4 units you’ll put on those TT are essential to keeping and holding Yunnan. The DD in SZ16 ensures the US cannot send its fleet from Hawaii to SZ6 on its first turn. As I vacated Korea, I am willing to trade a DD to ensure that the US has to wait an additional turn to do that if it so chooses. In addition, I’d much rather Russia take Korea or attack my 9 INF in Manchuria.
You will also notice that there were 1 INF, 1 ART now in Kiangsi (from Kiangsu) that were not utilized. There are a multitude of reasons for this, but the most important ones are:
First, they are an insurance policy for securing Kwangtung if something goes terribly wrong. I do not want to have to choose between giving up DEI on J2 by diverting units remaining from taking Flip to secure Kwangtung. This is what I’d term going backwards - and is something I’d prefer to avoid.
Second, in the case China decides to attack 1 the INF on Hunan and wins, I will have 1 INF, 1 ART, 1 MEC that can go there from both Kiangsi and Anhwe while still sending 5 INF and 1 ART to Kweichow. This ensures I can threaten both Szechwan and Yunnan on J3 and does not allow China to simply continue stacking on Yunnan.
Lastly, if all went well in China, that 1 INF and 1 ART can act as reinforcements that can be picked up by an empty TT from Flip and take Borneo. It also allows me to leave (typically an ART) on Flip so ANZAC has to send more than a single INF to try to take it back.
Place Units:
Place 2 TT in SZ6
Place Minor IC on Kiangsu
*Note, I prefer Kiangsu over Shantung simply because I play for Jehol to be where I stop the flood of Reds if I get diced in Manchuria. Having that extra space can buy me another round of purchases that could make the difference between losing my minor in China or not.
Some quick talking points on J2:
1. I almost exclusively buy 2 Minor IC to be placed in Kwangtung and French Indo China as well as purchasing 3 MEC for Kiangsu.
2. Those 3 MEC will combine with 4 units from the TT (J1 Purchase) for 7 units plus whatever makes it through Kweichow and Hunan to land on Yunnan all at the same time on J3. See point 5 below on why knowing this timing is important.
3. Depending on what ANZAC does, Japan has a few options on what DEI to take. Boreno is almost always taken. Some combination of the other 3 typically occurs, Celebes being the most typical, followed by Java and lastly Sumatra. I don’t like taking Sumatra too quickly, but even if you suicide a TT to land units, you do technically have TT bringing up the rear-guard that can swipe up those stranded units (after delivering 4 units from Japan to FIC - your new primary base of operations). I’d much rather keep the TT for later than collect IPC now, have to repurchase it later and have it catch up to be relevant. However, if the US is seriously threatening Tokyo, sacrificing a TT to gain 4 IPC plus a 5 IPC NO mean which translates to more INF on Tokyo next round - it MAY be worth the trade.
4. Yunnan can get very dicey on J2. If the UK decides to stack up what it can from UK1, you could be facing a Chinese purchase, its surviving units from the attack, 2 extra UK INF and 2 FTR and 1 TAC. This is really where you have to accept that losing planes now means you win later. UK specifically cannot replace these lost units with ease. Japan, to some extent can afford to lose some planes because it has Industrial Capacity coming up that will making the lost aircraft irrelevant due to the proximity and pressure MEC and ARM will put on Calcutta that now only has INF and a dwindling income to turtle with. Plus, as all your aircraft on are the land, and only ANZAC may have aircraft left, you don’t necessarily need to have all your CV loaded with FTR/TAC going forward to claim the DEI and finish off India.
5. If J2 is where you could get diced, J3 is where the tide changes (reference point 2 above). Going forward you will able to place some combination of 9 ARM or 6 ARM and 3 MEC per turn. At least 2/3 of them will be within immediate striking distance of Yunnan the very next round. So, sometimes it may be better to exercise patience and let China build its ART for a turn. They won’t last very long with DEI controlled by Japan and industrial complexes churning out twice the units China can in a single turn.
6. Lastly, this strategy is a hybrid compliment to Grasshopper’s initial Japan playbook. I cannot take credit for fully developing this strategy.
Nice this gives the UK the option to take JAVA and anzac the option to get 2 NO’s.
UK would take Sumatra UK1. Java is an option of course, but even if ANZAC sends its ships there, the entire weight of Japan’s Navy falls on it. Unless ANZAC moves to Java, Japan can take it with no resistance on J2 considering Japan goes before both nations
And you leave the UK BB alone, could be interesting fleet wise to group everything in queensland that can get there round 1 and dare japan to attack it.
2 BB 2 cruisers 2 destroyers and 3 fighters should be enough to either make it a mutual annihilation ( ill take that ) or an allied victory.UK can run to ANZAC if it wants with its BB. It’ll be isolated there and playing escort duty at best.
And move the US air from midway to Quensland so you wont be taking that 1 either, also gives a nice attack option near the money islands. This will force you to protect the transports and you cant protect them all unless you use blockers which ill gladly destroy.
As I said, I don’t want to take Queensland early. I just want it to appear that I could attempt to. US can easily fly itself down there - and typically would - along with its Navy. The alternative would be to establish a convoy in SZ6 and/or take Korea. Both I spoke about and attempt to delay it where possible.
The Allies can always stage off Queensland. In fact, it is suggested to do so in order to contest Japan’s expansion in the South Pacific.
This is nothing new, but the goal is for Japan to always be a single turn ahead of a tri-headed navy with a logical confrontation off of Malaya or Java as the IJN turns back from it’s siege of Calcutta.
Even the loss of DEI early is mitigated with IC placement as DD/SS/SB being mobilized there really change what the Allies thought was a well crafted trap of the IJN.
I don’t really understand why the above is superior to YG’s approach for a J1 DOW. I only see 3 inf who can attack Yunnan J2 and maybe a Mec - is that all the ground that goes in there? Putting a max land based attack (4inf + 8ftr + 5tb + 2sb) vs max defence (13inf + 1mec + 2tb + 1ftr + 1tank - assuming all UK fighters are defending in India against strat bombing, one inf loss China1 and maximum USSR land help plus two planes) into the calculator I get the Japanese winning 92% but at the cost of 8 planes and that’s without insisting on taking the territory. If you would make that attack as Japan I’d be pretty excited. I don’t understand at all why you wouldn’t send a second inf to Hunnan to protect your planes from loss.
Unloading all your carriers reduces your plane losses to 5.3 if you are going to say that.
I struggle to see a good attack on Yunnan J2 with a J1 DOW.
Side discussion: I strongly advocate an active Calcutta. A turtling Calcutta is merely waiting to be killed off. They need to be making a contribution to slowing the Japanese advance.
I don’t really understand why the above is superior to YG’s approach for a J1 DOW. I only see 3 inf who can attack Yunnan J2 and maybe a Mec - is that all the ground that goes in there? Putting a max land based attack (4inf + 8ftr + 5tb + 2sb) vs max defence (13inf + 1mec + 2tb + 1ftr + 1tank - assuming all UK fighters are defending in India against strat bombing, one inf loss China1 and maximum USSR land help plus two planes) into the calculator I get the Japanese winning 92% but at the cost of 8 planes and that’s without insisting on taking the territory.
Nothing is ever fool proof - clearly a kitchen sink effort to secure Yunnan from J2 gives one pause to consider the trade off. I think I actually alluded to it in my final talking points that there are times where it is not value-added to take Yunnan J2 because you’ll be much stronger on J3 and even more so on J4.
I have rarely seen (other than my own strategy) of moving the Russians into Yunnan early. I know it can work but sometimes I question the trade off the Russians make if Japan actually does attack anyways. Does that sink Moscow (it has for me)? Are you already intending to replace those lost aircraft with Allied Aircraft from UK London or maybe Persia?
I’m not convinced 4 mobile units and 3 planes are make or break for Moscow. My plan is more to weaken Germany with massive strategic bombing and creating a second front. And driving back Finland even if you can’t take down the force. I guess I’ll let you know how that goes next weekend. I guess that is a near KGF.
I doubt I’ll be replacing those aircraft with other allied planes. Perhaps other USSR planes if Strategic Bombing of Moscow is going to be on.
The longer China are a viable power, the rougher it is for Japan. The problem with that as a strategy is that it lets Germany achieve too much. But if they are taking 40 hits per turn on their industrial complexes in West Germany and Germany they won’t be achieving much. Need to start hitting Germany ASAP because that is closer to the front, which is best done from Norway or Finland. IJN can only achieve so much. Taking down Sydney is probably the worst they can do, with the second worst being Hawaii - relatively easily reclaimed unless the USN is not a viable force any more.
The other thing I’m thinking I’ll try is strat bombing Japan’s minor factories if I can. If you buy a bomber in South Africa UK2, it can be bombing UK4. Also if the UK bomber survives Taranto it can help.
BTW, I think that regardless of DOW on J1, 4 land units into Yunnan is overkill. Ultimately, whatever goes in doesn’t come out or live to J2. 3 - 2inf + art + TB + ftr + 2SB is plenty. . with That allows 2inf and an art into Kwangtung and 2 inf into Hunnan. Or some re-balancing of that. That makes it highly probable you’ll take all the territories without needing to lose a plane. I guess there might be a problem if you use the SBs to take down the UK BB - then you have a 30% chance of losing a plane to take the territory or worse.
Still better than only sending one inf into Hunnan and losing a plane to take the territory - or did I misunderstand that part. Do you only lose a plane on the second hit?
clearly a kitchen sink effort to secure Yunnan from J2 gives one pause to consider the trade off.
I think the major problem with the kitchen sink effort is that you expose Russian mobile units from Russia in Szechwan to air (only) attack. FIC really needs reinforcement from Japan J2 or massive aerial reinforcement to survive a USSR3 mobile + air attack. But presumably that will occur and will thin out Shan State if you throw the kitchen sink that for J3. Throwing the kitchen sink at Yunnan J2 also means you can’t reinforce Suiyan significantly. I’m reconsidering this idea now.
clearly a kitchen sink effort to secure Yunnan from J2 gives one pause to consider the trade off.
I think the major problem with the kitchen sink effort is that you expose Russian mobile units from Russia in Szechwan to air (only) attack. FIC really needs reinforcement from Japan J2 or massive aerial reinforcement to survive a USSR3 mobile + air attack. But presumably that will occur and will thin out Shan State if you throw the kitchen sink that for J3. Throwing the kitchen sink at Yunnan J2 also means you can’t reinforce Suiyan significantly. I’m reconsidering this idea now.
My typical J2 includes moving in 4 ground units via the J1 2 TT purchase into FIC. All aircraft also land there. FIC is a linchpin territory to hold due to the ability to continue a stream of 3 ground units / turn within great proximity of multiple territories.
I also want to clarify that rarely do I see Russia get involved in China outside of stepping into Manchuria and/or Korea. Clearly a player who tends to use the Russians to cause interference with Japan may simply require a J1 DOW to clear out its units in Amur and start chewing up IPC and territories once broken.
It may take a few games for the player controlling the Russians to stop running so much interference because a Japan and Germany working to take Moscow could spell problems for the Allies. Turns the game into a race to Egypt. Its actually a pretty boring game that way - the US could simply go watch a baseball game and come back before it can DOW.
J1 DOW can’t clear out units in Amur unless USSR has passed on the opportunity to evacuate.
As for all air units into FIC, that does expose Kwangtung to a mobile assault. China can clear out a blocker. Obviously this means that the kitchen sink has been thrown at Yunnan. I guess you’d be inclined to change up in that event.
J1 DOW can’t clear out units in Amur unless USSR has passed on the opportunity to evacuate.
As for all air units into FIC, that does expose Kwangtung to a mobile assault. China can clear out a blocker. Obviously this means that the kitchen sink has been thrown at Yunnan. I guess you’d be inclined to change up in that event.
I’d suggest reconsidering your position on Amur. It can surely be taken regardless if it was stacked upon, left alone or evacuated (last one’s easy). The only question is, at what expense?
There are at least 16 ground units that can reach Amur on J1, all but 3 aircraft can reach it, and you can throw in a few bombards as well for good measure.
You give up a lot of positioning and posturing for doing this and you surely don’t need all of this to take Amur, but if Japan’s strategy is to clear out those units and start advancing on Russia, clearly Amur is the beginning of that strategy and Russia cannot do anything about it except evacuate and swing around with the Mongolians later or evacuate them as well.
I highly suggest you reconsider talking in authoritative certainties. Just because it may not be a preferred move does not make it impossible to do.
You must have misread what I wrote - I’m expecting USSR to evacuate Amur R1. If they don’t, they can certainly be taken down. My point is that with the turn order, USSR moves first and can and should evacuate most of their units out, unless they’re intentionally inviting an attack.
You must have misread what I wrote - I’m expecting USSR to evacuate Amur R1. If they don’t, they can certainly be taken down. My point is that with the turn order, USSR moves first and can and should evacuate most of their units out, unless they’re intentionally inviting an attack.
I did. Apologies!
Tried countering this move as axis with a J1 DOW and J1&J2 Strat bomber buy (+2TT J1). Turned out the Philippines assault failed and the fighter survived to be the 4th interceptor, but I still did the strat bombing raid J3 with 3 bombers, figuring the damage I would do would hurt the Allies more than losing a bomber. Turned out all got through and shot one interceptor down, but more importantly, instead of repairing the damage, the Allies built an extra IC on West India which I could only reach from Shan State, which I hadn’t claimed yet.
4th interceptor would normally come ANZAC2 via Malaya IMO, but I think the alternate IC is a pretty radical strategy. Not sure of the advantage of it to be honest.
Certainly had trouble containing China while focusing so much on India.
