• also their is a thread specifically dealing with the list of issues to be fixed for 4.0.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12105.0

    lets get these done first.


  • AS you can see some of these need work. They are too easy for say Germany to get them done.

    too easy?
    besides Seize Mideast Oil all of them are like end game situations and can’t be achieved early game

    They have no viability if they are just useless ideas that have no effect on victory.

    national victory conditions are a guage of national success

    how else do you want to use them?
    should war in Europe end when war in Asia is won by Japan

    its a complex combination of team, national, city, income victory condtions, and also limited-turns game
    depends what you want

    I can do this, but the problems are with the 4.0 and not the 1939 file.

    my comment was regarding changes to 1939 that you would like

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12105.0

    ah, yes
    thats also what I quoted in my last post

    those are not grammar/wording changes or specific adjustments that I can just go to do
    and my reply was bring up one item as a time, discussing them in the existing thread if discussion started already


  • Quote
    AS you can see some of these need work. They are too easy for say Germany to get them done.
    too easy?
    besides Seize Mideast Oil all of them are like end game situations and can’t be achieved early game

    They are easier to achieve than the normal VC. I don’t see the value in them because we have victory conditions, and these most likely would be easy to also achieve if your close to victory. I would at least add some text to how they are played to make them relevant to 4.0

    Quote
    They have no viability if they are just useless ideas that have no effect on victory.
    national victory conditions are a gauge of national success

    yes but if they have no formal duty, they are just fluff

    how else do you want to use them?
    should war in Europe end when war in Asia is won by Japan

    Yes that was the idea with them originally, it should be possible for one axis nation to win and the other to fail, so partnerships dont need to take place to the extent they do under our current VC. THAT was the entire point of historical victory conditions. I feel we need to make a batter effort to tie this together to give it vitality and drive this point home.

    those are not grammar/wording changes or specific adjustments that I can just go to do
    and my reply was bring up one item as a time, discussing them in the existing thread if discussion started already

    yes lets begin this… pick one at a time. Old salty and Biergaden brought these up


  • @Imperious:

    They are easier to achieve than the normal VC. I don’t see the value in them because we have victory conditions, and these most likely would be easy to also achieve if your close to victory.

    Japan can do well and win for the Axis while Germany finishes the game without achieving enough of the national victory conditions

    yes but if they have no formal duty, they are just fluff

    they do have a duty
    if you don’t achieve them, you lost “nationally”

    Yes that was the idea with them originally, it should be possible for one axis nation to win and the other to fail

    to me once you considered all the possible combinations, you realise its not easy to define how to end the game
    Germany could be in a good shape
    but because Japan achieves their conditions the game ends and Germany loses
    doesn’t seem right

    the quick fix would be to make national victory conditions the 4th game mode
    that way you don’t have to worry about how it tanggles up with the city, IPC, etc game modes

    so partnerships dont need to take place to the extent they do under our current VC. THAT was the entire point of historical victory conditions. I feel we need to make a batter effort to tie this together to give it vitality and drive this point home.

    yeah, we can use national victory conditions as the 4th separate game mode


  • yeah, we can use national victory conditions as the 4th separate game mode

    well then lets add some text to explain what these conditions are about. Its very vague as written.


  • Tekkyy so whats next on the agenda?


  • oh yeah I just realise we don’t have to add 4th game mode
    its already there under Historical Victory

    currently Victory Condition is

    _Victory is achieved if victory conditions are maintained for one full game round. Three game modes are possible.

    Victory City: Axis wins if they control 45 VCP (Victory City Points). Allies win if they control 55 VCP. Each victory city has a VCP value.

    Historical Victory: The first nation that achieves it ranks first, with other nations ranking second and third accordingly. A list of historical victory conditions is found at the appendix.

    Economic Victory: Both teams bid the number of rounds that they want the game to last. The team that bids the higher number of turns plays Axis. The team controlling the majority of territory IPC at the end wins the game._

    so I’ll change Historical Victory to this?

    National Victory: Three national goals are selected randomly. The first nation to achieve the goals wins. A list of national victory conditions are found at the appendix[page blah].


  • perhaps we should turn the Historical victory conditions into IPC bonus of X IPC a turn that they are achieved, like in the new AA50 game?


  • um you saying you don’t want historical victory anymore?

    (just after we have AA50, with the same style historical conditions…)

    “IPC bonus of X IPC a turn” is just the individual economic victory in classic no?


  • Its pattern is similar to AA50. Look at the national objectives. They are basically a rip off of our idea for historical victory conditions except it rewards players with IPC, we don’t, we just say they won another aspect of our game, but it has no weight to a player other than a title of 1st or 2nd place.

    Since we actually came up with these ideas, we also take back “borrow” an idea from AA50.

    Lets assign our Historical victory as IPC. You decide how much. Look at the ones for AA50 in the fact sheet.


  • @Imperious:

    Lets assign our Historical victory as IPC. You decide how much. Look at the ones for AA50 in the fact sheet.

    so its going to be a free-for-all game mode?
    instead of historical conditions, its just IPC level?


  • Its a bonus for achieving historical conditions for conquest/liberation. Each one you take pays you a bonus, so when its clear your winning the game ends sooner because you got paid extra money and can now buy more stuff… Its just an optional rule anyway. The Historical conditions make have to be tweeked for 39 due to the new territories.


  • http://www.mediafire.com/?idiztkxjmne

    here is the link for 4.1 AARHE i got it to 32 pages. its an easy read.


  • no thats more like AARIL 1.0  :wink:
    notice some changes

    what do you want to change?
    language? structure? rules?

    discuss, agree, and do only one thing thanks
    (eg. if its language then you change that and touch nothing else…)

    this is how I did it in the past months
    someone sugguest, we discuss, agree and I update the changelog

    otherwise I’ll have to compare to current file side-by-side
    slowly and painfully discover and discuss what you’ve changed!


  • Yes its a step toward a less fat AARHE. Its got some cuts, but took the ideas and made the result less painfull to go thru as far as some of the more tedious steps in combat.

    of course i have a latter file, but will look at CAP as a support for losing some of the naval flavor.

    The air missions are all together

    ASW tech went down a box

    changes due to lots of playtesting of all of the included new concepts

    ID is gone. Its too much seasoning and not enough flavor…so AA gun is back, but modified

    the goal was not to leave ambiguity. It should require perhaps 2 reads to be clear.

    Historical VC is gone… not enough bang for the buck

    SPA was not utilzed well enough


  • seems to me that list is far from complete
    I only glanced at the file and I can recall a few changes like IC cost
    I believe you’re reinventing the wheel, AARHE:Lite has a simplified system already

    @Imperious:

    Yes its a step toward a less fat AARHE. Its got some cuts, but took the ideas and made the result less painfull to go thru as far as some of the more tedious steps in combat.

    we’ve reduced the complexity of AARHE alot since the peak
    but if you still find it tedious (though I have a feeling you are thinking the old rules)
    then you are hammering away at the wrong thing!
    read AARHE:Lite again and we go from there

    AARHE:Lite’s combat is not tedious
    *minimal combat sequence change from LHTR
    *most realism is done via hit allocation

    quite efficient

    of course i have a latter file, but will look at CAP as a support for losing some of the naval flavor.

    strange, very strange
    you want to remove the tedious combat steps and yet introduce CAP again?
    if we use a simple non-tedious system (like that in AARHE:Lite) and add CAP in…it’ll be so awarkard
    everything is simple and suddenly there is CAP with big proportions

    to refresh your memeory
    we had CAP before! remember?
    but got rid of it because it was just too much
    players already have to do ASW allocation
    the naval combat sequence was crazy with the mega combo of ASW + CAP + submarine fire + more…

    (AARHE:Lite don’t even have ASW allocation)

    The air missions are all together

    but air missions were already all together, in Conduct Combat

    except for two paragraphs in Combat Move
    *air mission, merely a reminder that you can now declare air missions in Combat Move besides LHTR’s ‘attack’ and ‘SBR’
    *DAS/Air Reinforcement, this is NOT an air mission (this is merely a rule to allow relocation of air units before combat)

    anyway I haven’t been as keen as you have been with having “air missions” in a less fat AARHE

    ASW tech went down a box

    changes due to lots of playtesting of all of the included new concepts

    ID is gone. Its too much seasoning and not enough flavor…so AA gun is back, but modified

    the goal was not to leave ambiguity. It should require perhaps 2 reads to be clear.

    Historical VC is gone… not enough bang for the buck

    SPA was not utilzed well enough

    only
    *ASW tech down a box
    *removal of historical victory condition
    were discussed

    anyway these two and the other changes, if we do them, I have to do to both AARHE and AARHE:Lite and update the two changelogs

    in the end
    so how do you want to do this less fat AARHE?
    I believe the best and shortest way is to work on AARHE:Lite

    make AARHE:Lite your 97% fat free AARHE

    1. you sugguest, we tick off

    2. I upate AARHE:Lite (and on AARHE too if relevant)

    3. when its done, only then, you do your transform/language/MSWORD thingy


  • vision
    I think this updated AARHE:Lite will bring great things for us
    lets playtest electronically finally


    you say the list of your changes is from playtesting
    but I know, I know what the situation really is
    you’ve always played AARHE marginally different with your group
    at times, more differently than oldsalty or Bierwagen

    after we update AARHE:Lite
    we playtest against each other ok?
    this project needs to more or less finalise

    AARHE:Lite will be the result of our work after all this (since 2006)
    a common point we agree on
    where as AARHE full thing, everyone just play it differently


  • you want to remove the tedious combat steps and yet introduce CAP again?

    nothing more than AAP

    also, the idea for what was cut was a tedious and not fun amphibious landing rules with all sorts of sets and different steps in each round.

    The DAS from 2 space range is too powerful

    ASW rules are totally confusing for new people. The new system is simple as can be.

    Air with naval and air with land was a chore.

    Submarine interactions on economy much easier with Xeno style rules. 2 sentences and its done. Not like 3 pages of ridiculous over complicated explanations and people cant get a clue whats going on.

    Id defense is too complicated. the new system has faults…still looking at it. basically going with low luck rules on them with OOB rules.

    Technology and diplomacy are perfect. don’t need any changes…only remove the useless extra pieces like SPA and transport planes. Nobody buys them anyway.

    If you read the new ideas you clearly see the idea and dont have to read it a second time. Everything needs to be self contained in its own section and written in simple language.

    The new ideas in many cases take the same flavor but model it simple.

    AARHE lite was basically take the same complicated ideas but just hodge podge fewer of them on paper. the problem was the entire document needed to be a dumb down version, but we kept the same stuff. its not what the people want.

    They just want to read the thing once or twice and start playing the rules need to be simple with no questions to be asked.

    The volume of questions can only lead to conclusions that the rules were complicated and subject to interpretations.

    I have played different versions because frankly the complicated rules blow people away… they are too much for normal AA players. I think this new version is the new lite version.

    I would play a game, but not with a program like AAA

    I would just set up the 1942 with no pieces and roll real dice on the table and i guess each round we decide if we retreat.

    I need to first finish the file… i have 2 versions since the one i posted… ill get it done then you make point by point which need clarification or make new ideas. The only idea that seems weak is the AA guns, but ID is too complicated as it stands.


  • Tekkyy please just pull the concepts you less favor one by one and well have a look.

    I will submit the file today


  • I need to first finish the file… i have 2 versions since the one i posted… ill get it done then you make point by point which need clarification or make new ideas. The only idea that seems weak is the AA guns, but ID is too complicated as it stands.

    Tekkyy please just pull the concepts you less favor one by one and well have a look. I will submit the file today

    I can’t believe you are still doing this
    we are in a hole, please stop digging

    I have been commenting on points only to be polite
    do realise you are getting a bit rude?
    (submit? you can release AARIL and AA50HE at any time lol…but right at the beginning of AARHE you said you don’t own the project)

    no discuss-adjust-agree-update process, no changelog…
    its easy for YOU
    but painful for me who needs to read your whole file side by side with the latest file
    it takes me a lot of time to do this and I am afraid I can’t afford it

    my position remains that we use the existing system of discussion-adjust-agree
    I update the AARHE:Lite file as points are agreed/ticked off

    after that, if the rules are short enough (like 5 pages 1 column)
    then you can experiment with MSWORD, self-contained structure, etc wbut the rules must remain untouched for that purpose

    if you want to adjust AARHE (with 30 pages) then I strongly disagree with going MSWORD
    for a small file MSWORD is ok, for large file its pain to update spacing
    adding one sentence requires reviewing the whole document
    I can tell you already OOB is not written with MSWORD
    for many practical reasons

    (by the way you did this last time too
    you came back from your other projects and decided to make a colour version of AARHE
    you took an old 2.0 file, something like 6 months old
    made wholesome changes
    wasted months of past development time
    took like month to discuss the new file just to get it back on its fleet
    only then we get to start reviewing your changes)


    @Imperious:

    nothing more than AAP

    whats AAP?

    also, the idea for what was cut was a tedious and not fun amphibious landing rules with all sorts of sets and different steps in each round.

    amphibous assault and naval combat were both simplified
    we didn’t simplify it enough partially because you didn’t want to, if you recall you even introduced mountainous amphibious assault

    The DAS from 2 space range is too powerful

    DAS from 2 space away is an old rule
    I am really scared  :-(
    if you had to remove it you are reading the wrong file

    ASW rules are totally confusing for new people. The new system is simple as can be.

    it’ll be interesting to see if it is simpler than AARHE:Lite 's system

    Air with naval and air with land was a chore.

    I’ll have to see
    because you had no changelog its pain lot of reading for me to do
    can’t comment yet

    Submarine interactions on economy much easier with Xeno style rules. 2 sentences and its done. Not like 3 pages of ridiculous over complicated explanations and people cant get a clue whats going on.

    hm, it was never any close to 3 pages
    I hope you are not mixing AARHE up with your other projects

    don’t know what Xeno used, hopes its not the unrealistic convoy boxes

    Id defense is too complicated. the new system has faults…still looking at it. basically going with low luck rules on them with OOB rules.

    the search die attack die system is not nice
    it was partially because we didn’t want to use a D12
    anyway, low luck is scary and I hope your system doesn’t involve OOB’s “only one AA can fire” thing

    Technology and diplomacy are perfect. don’t need any changes…only remove the useless extra pieces like SPA and transport planes. Nobody buys them anyway.

    yeah we can easily transport plane, the rules are written in mind when the optional units transport plane is not selected for play
    not so sure about SPA, we designed the numbers to give it a role

    If you read the new ideas you clearly see the idea and dont have to read it a second time. Everything needs to be self contained in its own section and written in simple language.

    self contained has not worked inm history and unlikely to work
    there is a reason why OOB and LHTR is written the way they are (phase by phase structure)

    it however may work if we do my sugguest of making a less fat AARHE:Lite
    when its just 10-15 rules, it could work
    this is one reason why AARe worked with the semi-self-contained structure

    and why it didn’t work well for enhanced realism rules, because it was too complex

    The new ideas in many cases take the same flavor but model it simple.

    yeah thats actually what AARHE:Lite does with production and combat
    its much simpler than AARHE

    AARHE lite was basically take the same complicated ideas but just hodge podge fewer of them on paper. the problem was the entire document needed to be a dumb down version, but we kept the same stuff. its not what the people want.

    for much of production and combat AARHE:Lite is far simpler than AARHE
    there is nothing wrong with keeping th same stuff for simple things (like collect income phase being at the end of the turn sequence)

    to me its mainly the complex rules like air missions that you insisted on keeping when we created AARHE:Lite

    They just want to read the thing once or twice and start playing the rules need to be simple with no questions to be asked.
    The volume of questions can only lead to conclusions that the rules were complicated and subject to interpretations.

    this will depend on how simple you want it
    an adjusted AARHE, it’ll unlikely be simple enough
    however an adjusted AARHE:Lite can do it

    I have played different versions because frankly the complicated rules blow people away… they are too much for normal AA players. I think this new version is the new lite version.

    we are much closer if we just adjust AARHE:Lite
    while I can adjust AARHE

    I would play a game, but not with a program like AAA

    wasn’t thinking of axis and allies simulators but more like electronics boards like Abattlemap

    I would just set up the 1942 with no pieces and roll real dice on the table and i guess each round we decide if we retreat.

    another way is to use the edit function of TripleA I guess

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