Time Traveling

[Jermofoot]

I never saw “Butterfly Effect” the movie - I was referring to the phenomenon (theorized) rooted in chaos theory that came up in meteorology - that a butterfly in Japan could possibly help cause a hurricane in California…or something like that.  I don’t know what the movie does with that theory, but it’s used somewhat well in the Simpsons on a Halloween special where Homer makes a time-traveling toaster.  He’s warned not to mess with things too much, and every time he goes back, he gets more and more frustrated and does more damage…leading to quite a few variations of his family and present environment.

[frimmel]

I like the all time exsists at once version. See Parrallels in ST:TNG 6th or 7th season. It is essentially ShadowHawks multiple planes version. There are an infinite number of events possible at this particular time. They are all occuring.

How much power does thought have in that? Does a collective will influence the flow from a particular moment?

If all time exsists at once mustn’t there be some flow between the moments? Won’t some currents be stronger than others?

On another note there is a tendency it seems for fiction to concentrate on “big” moments. Things that are deep in the collective conscious. Kill Hitler, stop Pearl Harbor, Keep the Titanic from sinking. What if it is smaller moments that need altered if you want to change where time is going? Stuff less known? What descion that is unknown and undocumented if changed changes the world?

In the comic Sandman there is Destiny’s garden. You walk the paths of Destiny’s garden an you must chose many times as the paths diverge and reconnect and diverge again. But after a lifetime of walking you look back and see only one path behind you.

[Guest]

Wow I cant beleive that my thread has gotten such a response.  :-o

I kind of like the Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure way of time traveling.  Why?  Cause its excellent thats why!!

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[Janus1]

Jermo- The Butterfly effect is like you said- A butterfly beating its wings in China could cause a hurricane in the Caribbean (places may be different). I dont know that it came up in meteorolgy per se (unless you happen to know that it did), I think its just more of a metaphor, that seemingly insignificant actions can have massive effects, unforseen and seemingly unrelated.

Jen- thats an interesting theory. More useful, in my opinion,  as a way to describe God, than as a way to describe time.

It is essentially ShadowHawks multiple planes version. There are an infinite number of events possible at this particular time. They are all occuring.

I like this idea. See below

How much power does thought have in that? Does a collective will influence the flow from a particular moment?

If all time exsists at once mustn’t there be some flow between the moments? Won’t some currents be stronger than others?

My theory (not really a theory, more the beginnings of a theory) is that at any given point in time, literally ANYTHING is possible. There are infinite possibilities (hence, infinite universes), and at any moment, anything could happen (e.g. You could be talking to a person, when all of a sudden they turn into a pink elephant). What keeps reality from looking like the result of a random number generator is probability. The chances of the person I am talking to suddenly becoming a pink elephant are almost zero, as are the chances of most things that could happen at any moment to that person. Chances are, they will stay a person, and nothing out of the ordinary will happen. This is what controls the flow of time. Yes, there are an infinite number of events possible at any particular time. And sure, maybe there are infinite universes where all possibilities are happening at every moment. But probability keeps things functioning in a rational way.

The implications of this theory are interesting, since if infinite possibilities are playing out in infinite dimensions simultaneously forever, then either there is one universe (ours) where rationality governs, or all universes are rationally governed, but whats rational changes from universe to universe. The latter would make more sense, since it would then keep each universe running rationally, just the result of that rationality would be something entirely different then what we are used to.

(Btw: If anyone notices a certain similarity to the Hitchiker’s Guide series, you arent crazy, I got the idea of a universe governed by probability from the series)

[AgentOrange]

MechWarfare, you gotta be careful - I almost spit cereal all over my screen when I saw your Bill & Ted pic!  :lol:

[Jennifer]

@Janus1:

Jen- thats an interesting theory. More useful, in my opinion,  as a way to describe God, than as a way to describe time.

To be honest, we were having a debate of how God could know the future and the past and be ever present and omniscient while still giving us free will.  The “Straw Theory” as we called it (because we used a drinking straw as a visual aid) was what we came up with.

It allowed for the future to have already been complete and for God to know all the actions that will be taken, while still allowing us free will as we travel down the length of the straw.

[Guest]

@AgentOrange:

MechWarfare, you gotta be careful - I almost spit cereal all over my screen when I saw your Bill & Ted pic!  :lol:

Excellent!!  :lol:

[Linkon]

Superman speeded himself up past a time barrier so he could save Lois.

Dr. Evil (in Austin Powers) makes it groovy fun!

Star Trek plays with time travel quite frequently.

From that show, we could envision time as not a line, but rather a growing cone, shaped by multiple event outcomes and decisions.

As a Christian, I tend to think of time as more of a river.  From the book of Esther we understand that if the Almighty called me for some action, and by my choice (lack of faith) I did not do it, He can punish me and call someone else to that action.  He holds all time in His hands so what He wants done eventually gets done.  This would be the one universal time path (out of the multitudes that make up the time cone) we all currently share.

We can see this played out in the rise of the Internet.  Small at first, but now almost everyone has it.  We even purchase books, toys, tickets, and other stuff on it too.  Did you know we are just coming back from a recession?  Internet purchase volumes were up over 10+ fold from 1998 - 2005.  It did not matter which dot.coms went bankrupt during that time.  This unstoppable force has the blessing of the Lord.  The growth way outpaces bricks and mortar.

[frimmel]

@Linkon:

As a Christian, I tend to think of time as more of a river. From the book of Esther we understand that if the Almighty called me for some action, and by my choice (lack of faith) I did not do it, He can punish me and call someone else to that action. He holds all time in His hands so what He wants done eventually gets done. This would be the one universal time path (out of the multitudes that make up the time cone) we all currently share.

We can see this played out in the rise of the Internet. Small at first, but now almost everyone has it. We even purchase books, toys, tickets, and other stuff on it too. Did you know we are just coming back from a recession? Internet purchase volumes were up over 10+ fold from 1998 - 2005. It did not matter which dot.coms went bankrupt during that time. This unstoppable force has the blessing of the Lord. The growth way outpaces bricks and mortar.

Perhaps the growth is destroying Brick and Mortar? No one can afford to operate a “small” business i.e. mom and pop shop these days. Who can compete with Wal-Mart?

The internet has the Blessing of the Lord? Perhaps it is stronger than the Lord? Perhaps in this current of the river he is letting it pass to see whether he should allow it in other currents? Perhaps we are the aberration and all the other currents choose to not allow the internet to grow?  What if no one can perform the action no matter how strong their faith? What would happen to the river then?

[Linkon]

I was just on the Ebay site and they now sell Sears and Roebuck vintage catalogs.  898 pages!  I think I saw one at a neighbors back in the 70’s.  Thick as the yellow pages for a major city.

That may have been in the bricks and mortar era prior to the highways that got us shopping malls.  Big Box and superdiscount stores then took the blessings away from the anchored mall stores.

[Janus1]

It allowed for the future to have already been complete and for God to know all the actions that will be taken, while still allowing us free will as we travel down the length of the straw.

my own way of reconciling this (just because i dont believe in god doesnt mean i dont have theories on how he functions) is to see time as a something like a family tree, in the sense that each moment has infinite possibilities branching off from it, with infinite possibilities branching off from each possibility, and so forth. God, in his omniscience, knows at any given time everything that has happened (past) everything happening (present) and every potential occurrence (future) along with the possibilities that arise from those possibilities. free will allows us to move from the present to the future however we choose (obviously within the limits of what our physical world allows us to do), and God knows what will happen at each stage whatever you decide, as well as what is the most probable occurrence (its more likely that i will choose to finish this post, submit it, and move on then that i will be suddenly gripped by a burning desire to go to Colorado, and leave right now without finishing), but God doesnt make the choice for you (though he could, but that would violate free will).

if you want to abstract it further, the universe is like a computer program, and God is the programmer. The program is extremely comprehensive, to the point that it seems complete (here i use “complete” to mean accounting for all situations, and rationally dealing with every possibility within the rules of the program), and God has a comprehensive knowledge of how the program functions, what has happened so far in the program, and what is happening, as well as all possible outcomes of the program. He knows what is most likely to happen, but free will prevents him from knowing for certain what will happen. free will is the AI of the people created in the program. God can certainly remove our free will (like the Free Will toggle in The Sims) but he doesnt, because he allows the program to work itself out. the program runs on its own, requiring no input from God, but functions better when God is actively involved, even in small ways, because he can direct the proceedings rather than allowing them to unfold. since he is programmer, he can rewrite the rules of the program at will, and do anything he wants, thus the omnipotence and omnipresence.

I hope you were able to follow that, it was basically focused stream of conciousness.

[frimmel]

I followed it fine. Seems quite reasonable to me as well. I think that God gave us “free will” so that we could chose to love him. Getting much more into what God does and does not want is asking for trouble. Well, in my belief system anyway.  What is the contridictory notion, “God is in the details. The Devil’s in the details?” If you believe in such things, might those guys be playing your computer program for their own ends?

[Janus1]

well, dont get confused- im trying to develop a comprehensive theory of God, but that doesnt mean i believe he exists, rather, im trying to describe God (in the judeo-christian sense) in a rational way. theres also the (too easy) theory that God is beyond human comprehension, so much so that its like Daoism: “the Dao that can be explained is not the Dao at all”, which basically means that whatever you can say about God is not true of God, the true nature of God defies all human understanding and explanation.

As for might they be playing for their own ends- of course. it seems natural. God is the creator of this amazing computer program. angels were created in the program in a function something like agents in the matrix, except not malevolvent. Satan, then, is a rogue angel, who tries to manipulate the program to his own ends. but satan is stuck within the program, and is limited by the rules of the program. God, the programmer, is not. So God is ultimately superior to Satan, but allows Satan’s existence and attempts at subversion because it creates interesting scenarios in the program.

this so far is the only way i can reconcile the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God who is at all involved in his creation. the computer analogy simply puts it into easily digested framework.

[Jermofoot]

I suppose you could say Satan and demons are the “viruses” of the program.  Or the dreaded “Blue Screen of Death” - not really in that analogy, but someone has to make the Bill Gates = the Devil joke.  :evil:

Interesting analogy overall, but you must realize that if you are speaking of something programmed, there is already a limit on free will.  That’s the difficulty in building good AI (I’m sorry, Dave).

[Janus1]

Interesting analogy overall, but you must realize that if you are speaking of something programmed, there is already a limit on free will.  That’s the difficulty in building good AI (I’m sorry, Dave).

first, keep in mind that “programmed” is only applicable in the analogy, not necessarily in the actuality. second, you cant place human limits on super-human beings such as God. third, even for humans, this is a consequence of the technology we have, not of the technical possibilities. fourth, assuming God exists in some form similar to the way ive described with the analogy, he is the “perfect” programmer, able to literally program anything. his knowledge of the programming language is total, his ability to use the language to develop complex systems, rules and creatures is limited only by his ability to imagine, and surely, anything we can imagine God can imagine.

i like the critique though, anyone else see any holes, discrepencies, paradoxical conclusions, etc. please let me know, Id like to continue developing this theory.

[AgentOrange]

@Janus1:

It allowed for the future to have already been complete and for God to know all the actions that will be taken, while still allowing us free will as we travel down the length of the straw.

my own way of reconciling this (just because i dont believe in god doesnt mean i dont have theories on how he functions) is to see time as a something like a family tree, in the sense that each moment has infinite possibilities branching off from it, with infinite possibilities branching off from each possibility, and so forth. God, in his omniscience, knows at any given time everything that has happened (past) everything happening (present) and every potential occurrence (future) along with the possibilities that arise from those possibilities. free will allows us to move from the present to the future however we choose (obviously within the limits of what our physical world allows us to do), and God knows what will happen at each stage whatever you decide, as well as what is the most probable occurrence (its more likely that i will choose to finish this post, submit it, and move on then that i will be suddenly gripped by a burning desire to go to Colorado, and leave right now without finishing), but God doesnt make the choice for you (though he could, but that would violate free will).

if you want to abstract it further, the universe is like a computer program, and God is the programmer. The program is extremely comprehensive, to the point that it seems complete (here i use “complete” to mean accounting for all situations, and rationally dealing with every possibility within the rules of the program), and God has a comprehensive knowledge of how the program functions, what has happened so far in the program, and what is happening, as well as all possible outcomes of the program. He knows what is most likely to happen, but free will prevents him from knowing for certain what will happen. free will is the AI of the people created in the program. God can certainly remove our free will (like the Free Will toggle in The Sims) but he doesnt, because he allows the program to work itself out. the program runs on its own, requiring no input from God, but functions better when God is actively involved, even in small ways, because he can direct the proceedings rather than allowing them to unfold. since he is programmer, he can rewrite the rules of the program at will, and do anything he wants, thus the omnipotence and omnipresence.

I hope you were able to follow that, it was basically focused stream of conciousness.

Thank you Janus, that is exactly the point-of-view that I try to take with regards to time travel.  At the beginning of all things (like the universe) time was represented by the trunk of said tree.  As time went on, the possibliities, and thus the state of all things, branched out to encompass many diverse states.

[Jermofoot]

Janus -

What’s the purpose of your analogy?  I don’t see it as a proof of God - but where are you wanting to take it?

[Janus1]

I don’t see it as a proof of God

Neither do I, I dont believe in God.

What’s the purpose of your analogy?

<shrugs>Whats the purpose of any philosophical discourse?

My analogy is my way of comprehending God. Both for my own benefit, and for discussions with others. The analogy provides a starting point, this is how I concieve of a Judeo-Christian type God (omnipotent, omniscient, etc.) This helps me to process and analyze any new information or new question that may arise regarding God, and gives me a basis for discussions with other people. It is to that end that I am trying to further develop it, because the end goal of a theory on any topic is comprehensiveness w.r.t. that topic, in this case, God. It proves nothing, and doesnt attempt to.</shrugs>