Japan landing in western US –--- how can i do this?

[jsp4563]

I’m a member of caspian sub, have read the paper, and I agree with U-505, Canadian Shield is just not a viable strategy against even a moderately experienced player.

[Jennifer]

Isnt staging from W. USA going to delay the US by two full turns?  E. USA to E. Canada vs W. USA to W. Canada to E. Canada?

[DarthMaximus]

Not really.  Consider this:

US 1 - buy 2 trns, 8 inf save 2

You transport 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm
Non-com 4 inf to W can (wus, cus)
Placement:  2 trns in Eus sz, 4 inf on Eus, 4 inf on Wus

US 2 - buy 1 trn, 10 inf + some left over
Tranny your 2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm to Nor (or wherever)
tranny 4 inf to UK
Non-Com: 4 inf to E can, 4 inf to W can
Placement: 1 trn Eus sz, 2-4 inf on Eus, and 8-6 inf on Wus.

And now you’re set.  You gradually move 1 trn from sz 8 to sz 6 each turn to cover your growing numbers on UK and you buy a new trn to replace it.

You don’t really lose much at all.  Plus you have a trn and BB from the Pac to use by rd 3.

You don’t need to get crazy with placing in Wus but as long as you have at least 4-6 inf moving from Wus to Wcan, you can discourage Japan from really testing you in Ala.

Then later, (once you have your shuck fully set up - only cost you 24 to buy 8 inf), you now have at least 14 “extra” IPC to spend on whatever you want, ftrs/boms or perhaps a trn to harass the SE Pac islands.

[Guest]

@U-505:

I thank you for your generous offer to go to GenCon and would like to say that if the Caspian sub group would chip in and pay for my flight, hotel and rental car to go to GenCon, I would be more than happy to pay for them to sign up here and actually prove the merits of their strategies by playing games at this board.  :-D

Noted!  For a while I’ve been trying to figure out how to embezzle funds from CSub, but I haven’t succeeded yet.  If I do, I’ll see about getting you a “scholarship”.

Trihero is the only other Caspian Sub member that I know plays here…

True, TriHero is a good guy.  I owe him a Triple A turn one of these days…

Ok, you raise some points about substance so let’s assume at this point that we’re talking past each other and you were really trying to fire up some debate.  Cool!

What I mean when I say I’m looking for a substantial argument is that a real debate ought to take into account points already made in the discussion.   Your points about a “one-trick pony” are addressed in the paper.  You’re saying “it doesn’t work”, but to me that’s not substantial argument because you are ignoring the battery of information that already discusses your concerns.

For instance, there are 5 major variations listed in the paper:

1. Full Canadian Shield (perhaps the one-trick pony, but one freaking tough pony)
2. Asymetrical Can. Shield (staggered timing)
3. Partial Can. Shield (one power only)
4. Aborted Can. Shield (establish threat to force response; don’t pull the trigger)
5. Land Bridge Can. Shield (monster naval threat)

But even with those 5 major variations, and several minor ones, you say with a dismissive hand wave, “one-trick pony”.  What?  That’s at least 5 tricks!  :-D

And that’s why I was not interested in engaging in debate.  There’s no point in arguing about a straw man; ask me about your straw man and I’ll say, “yeah, that may be a straw man.  But what about all the other issues you’ve ignored?”

Ok then.  The floor is yours.

[U-505]

Darth, Jennifer,

If the threat of combined landings makes you squeamish then, building armor in W US and inf in E US both to be moved into E Can won’t delay you at all. And it allows you to move the armor directly to E US in case the landings happen and you need to fortify the E US at the expense of W US.

Crazystraw, I will even give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the landings somehow happen. The US/UK combined fleet can crush the German fleet in sz9, the UK rebuilds TP’s, and begins landing in E Can to help keep Japan bottled up in W US. The UK army won’t be needed in Europe because Germany will have it’s hands full facing a Russia that likely has more units, more income, and is trading E Eur and Balk every turn. Don’t forget, Germany spent most of it’s income on TP’s in G1 and the Canadian Shield attack means 5 inf, 5 arm have just left W Eur for Canada. What does Germany have left to fight off the Russians? The fighter’s certainly. But, if Russia manages to somehow get into Balkans in force Germany would be in trouble.

Also, Japan will be spending the bulk of it’s new income just trying to hold onto the W US so Russia could probably bleed off a couple units and hold them off in Asia.

I will asses the other possible uses for the aborted Shield in another post, but for now, I have to say I neither enjoy nor desire slinging sarcasm at anyone and it is a welcome relief to finally get into the non-partisan portion of the debate. I wave the white flag of truce.

And I have used the Partial Shield without knowing it with japan versus Trihero to turn the US back from landing in Africa with mixed results. The US was delayed but it left me lean in  ground units in Asia.

[Guest]

Sounds good.

The paper addresses the point I’m about to make, but because of the type of play that seems to occur in this forum, let me emphasize it again: the full Canadian Shield is most likely to be effective in a KJF game, and only rarely in a KGF game.

The reason is that in KGF the US is building ground troops right from the start, but in a KJF game, the first two rounds are often entirely naval.  That means on round three there is a good chance you are landing 10inf 10tnk in Canada before the US has built a single ground unit.  Even worse, in KJF some of the ground troops may be in W Can so you kill them during the landing.

So what does this mean practically?

Well, every CSub editor (nine guys) plays KGF almost exclussively.  We rarely have an opportunity to threaten the full attack (but wow, the first time you bust someone with the move it is beautiful :-D).  Even the partial attack, however, has been enough to change our playing style.  We used to run 4x4 Atlantic transport fleets in KGF.  But often enough Japan would either land “light” to screw up the US trasnport shuttle or just move up to threaten LA directly.  That caused us to move to a 3x3 Atlantic transport system so we could buy extra fighters to compensate for sneak attacks yet still shuttle fire power to Europe.

The second practical application is that many tournament players play KJF.  Because of the bonus points awarded in the tournaments, KJF is a much better option than it is in a standard domination game (though I still prefer KGF even under tournament rules).  So CShield has a lot more potential in that venue.

(Squirecam, the successfull Apostle of KJF, is scrupulously copying and pasting this post right now  :-D)

I’d be surprised if you use this move A LOT versus KGF players.  But if you don’t know about the full move and the ramifications of the variants, you are asking for a beating (or ten).  If nothing else, you should make your opponent see the move coming even if you have no intention of pulling the trigger; make him pay the price of countering even the moves you don’t make.

Peace

[DarthMaximus]

@U-505:

Darth, Jennifer,

If the threat of combined landings makes you squeamish then, building armor in W US and inf in E US both to be moved into E Can won’t delay you at all. And it allows you to move the armor directly to E US in case the landings happen and you need to fortify the E US at the expense of W US.

It has nothing to do with being squeamish or worried, it has to do with efficiency.
Armor in Wus could work, but I don’t find it a proper deterant and not very efficient when challanged.

Infact, as Japan (if given the opportunity say post rd 4) I’d land 4 inf in Ala just so the US has to divert armor to Ala, then I’d counter with another inf or 2 from Japan and force the US player out of his Eus placement.
I’d gladly trade inf for armor.  Cost to Japan 6 inf (4 for the initial landing and 2 more with bb-shots) to counter the US armor.  Cost to US min 4-6 arm + disrupted Shuck-shuck right in the middle of the crucial part of the game.  (this assumes Japan already has IC’s on Asia and has secured at least Chi and Yak).

With Inf from Wus to Wcan, worst case you can ignore the Ala landing, let them have the 2 IPC they cant go anywhere from there.  Avg case a couple inf and a bom (maybe ftr) and you wipe them out, Inf for inf.  Best case you deter the landing altogether.

I’ll take any one of these over a disrupted US shuck-shuck post rd 4 or 5.

[Guest]

Squirecam, BTW, had a frustrating situation happen under the Origins scoring system.  In that tournament scoring system, LA is not worth bonus points (though all the other VCs are worth at least 10 bonus IPCs).

The irony of that to me is that LA is the one non-capital VC that can mean the whole game.  If you capture Leningrad, Calcutta, Manila, etc. it is nice but it is not game over.  Even Paris and Rome can usually be stomped on by Germany since they are right next to Berlin; often you have to capture those places a couple of times to hold them.

But if Japan takes LA, the game is often over.

Think about it: Let’s say R3 the Axis land in Canada and the US can’t build enough to hold both LA and DC.  Well, if LA falls in that instance, C. US can be blocked so LA won’t be liberated even if the Germans evacuate back to Europe.

So what does the board look like for the balance of power?

Japan is at least +10, probably much more.   But conservatively let’s give them their starting 30 and the 10 from LA.  That’s 40.  What does the US have?  At most, 42 - 10 for LA.  Japan is out collecting the US 40 to 32, and they are now building 10 unites directly in North America.

Holding LA is one of the few “game over” spots on the board, yet it is not worth any bonus points in the tournament system.

Squirecam lost a game where he held LA, and in my assessment that is almost an automatic win for the Axis unless Germany is in dire straits.

Whew, suddenly that got long.

Short version: LA good.  Should be worth points.  Poor, poor Squirecam!

:wink:

[squirecam]

@CrazyStraw:

Squirecam, BTW, had a frustrating situation happen under the Origins scoring system.  In that tournament scoring system, LA is not worth bonus points (though all the other VCs are worth at least 10 bonus IPCs).

The irony of that to me is that LA is the one non-capital VC that can mean the whole game.  If you capture Leningrad, Calcutta, Manila, etc. it is nice but it is not game over.  Even Paris and Rome can usually be stomped on by Germany since they are right next to Berlin; often you have to capture those places a couple of times to hold them.

But if Japan takes LA, the game is often over.

Think about it: Let’s say R3 the Axis land in Canada and the US can’t build enough to hold both LA and DC.  Well, if LA falls in that instance, C. US can be blocked so LA won’t be liberated even if the Germans evacuate back to Europe.

So what does the board look like for the balance of power?

Japan is at least +10, probably much more.   But conservatively let’s give them their starting 30 and the 10 from LA.  That’s 40.  What does the US have?  At most, 42 - 10 for LA.  Japan is out collecting the US 40 to 32, and they are now building 10 unites directly in North America.

Holding LA is one of the few “game over” spots on the board, yet it is not worth any bonus points in the tournament system.

Squirecam lost a game where he held LA, and in my assessment that is almost an automatic win for the Axis unless Germany is in dire straits.

Whew, suddenly that got long.

Short version: LA good.  Should be worth points.  Poor, poor Squirecam!

:wink:

Ah, Crazy, my buddy old pal. Grieve not for the Squire. :)

The truth is I wouldnt have done it, but for MatildaMike, my Origins partner. It was he who suggested we do it, and I who agreed. So I will share the blame. :)

You are correct about LA and “real game” vs Tournament game. In any full 9 VC game, Axis would have won,  as japan had a solid foothold in LA. I still do NOT think LA deserves bonus points (or rather, Not under the alternate system proposed. I would simply make Washington 10 and LA 10 or 15-5).

As for those who dont know him, Crazy is not exactly crazy, he and C-sub members do have some good ideas and are good players. He would have not made the finals of Origins otherwise.

Specifically, as for the German fleet “never doing anything”, it certainly can, if you use it correctly. Obviously, crazy and I have different ideas on how that works, but I never said he was perfect. :)

Squirecam

[Jennifer]

The Gerry fleet can be formidable.  1 DD, 2 SS, 1 CV (purchased), 2 FIG, 1 BB, 2 TRN if you converge off the coast of France.  That’s a helluva fight for the allies to break through.

But just making a carrier purchase for Germany does nothing.  If it sits in the Baltic or doesn’t link with the BB, it’s worthless.  I’ll go around it.  After all, the goal of the game isn’t to sink Germany’s fleet, it’s to take Berlin.

[squirecam]

@U-505:

Tri, trust me, I do understand. The G1 purchase for Canadian Shield is 3 TP, 2 inf, 2 arm. A 2 TP build is only effective versus a UK1 air attack and after that it becomes a lot less useful than a CV build. The allies can have more than enough navy in sz8 to make a naval/air attack from sz7 simply a fleet trade. The Allies rebuild and Germany is out of Africa for good.

And come on, man. Throw me a bone, here. Canadian Shield is nothing but a one-trick pony. You gotta admit that the gambit relies heavily on the bid to ensure that an attack on Egypt is manageable. The fleet merge in sz7 leaves Africa to easily fall. And the worst part is that he needs max fighters in WE to make the threat stick and keep the Allies at bay. Otherwise, the Allies can just strafe the TP’s out from under him and put the gambit out of business without having to worry about about a German counter attack. Or, like I said, the UK can just build a sub in sz7 and then he can’t load units so it’s easily countered. And with 5 armor and the bulk of his fighters in WE, the Russians are coming hard with lighter than normal resistance by Germany in Europe. Canadian Shield takes 2 turns to set up and 1 turn to execute. A lot can go wrong in between.

My CV/TP Med build is not without it’s shortcomings but at least I control Africa and that makes up for Russian and UK gains in Europe. Plus, I have the flexibility to shuttle units through T-J or back to Europe to threaten the Russian advance with frontline landings and BB shots.

As to the merits of a German fleet…

1 - I agree that an AC is a better buy fleetwise than 2 transports, which cannot attack.
2 - However, an AC is strictly defensive unless pared with some other builds, and you need more transport to threaten UK
3 - I think you can build a baltic fleet and threaten UK and USA, while still protecting vs USSR and getting Egypt.
4 - EVERY game that has a bid uses it in their strategy. Regardless of whether you like CS or not, the bid build will be an important part, just like every other strategy in bid games
5 - With a 6+ bid, Egypt is pretty safe to be conquered, leaving the fleet free to merge in SZ7. Also, as you will be going KGF, a smart axis player will rush to help Germany take africa. It is hard/risky to build an IC and protect vs UK invasion and have a sufficient fleet. One of them must go.

Squirecam

[Guest]

And by “going around” it, you just made my defense of both Germany and Eastern far easier.  Totally blocked any UK landings, and it only cost me 16 IPC’s, compared to 30 IPC each for INF, and then constant replacement of them as they are whittled at :-)

[Jennifer]

@squirecam:

@U-505:

Tri, trust me, I do understand. The G1 purchase for Canadian Shield is 3 TP, 2 inf, 2 arm. A 2 TP build is only effective versus a UK1 air attack and after that it becomes a lot less useful than a CV build. The allies can have more than enough navy in sz8 to make a naval/air attack from sz7 simply a fleet trade. The Allies rebuild and Germany is out of Africa for good.

And come on, man. Throw me a bone, here. Canadian Shield is nothing but a one-trick pony. You gotta admit that the gambit relies heavily on the bid to ensure that an attack on Egypt is manageable. The fleet merge in sz7 leaves Africa to easily fall. And the worst part is that he needs max fighters in WE to make the threat stick and keep the Allies at bay. Otherwise, the Allies can just strafe the TP’s out from under him and put the gambit out of business without having to worry about about a German counter attack. Or, like I said, the UK can just build a sub in sz7 and then he can’t load units so it’s easily countered. And with 5 armor and the bulk of his fighters in WE, the Russians are coming hard with lighter than normal resistance by Germany in Europe. Canadian Shield takes 2 turns to set up and 1 turn to execute. A lot can go wrong in between.

My CV/TP Med build is not without it’s shortcomings but at least I control Africa and that makes up for Russian and UK gains in Europe. Plus, I have the flexibility to shuttle units through T-J or back to Europe to threaten the Russian advance with frontline landings and BB shots.

As to the merits of a German fleet…

1 - I agree that an AC is a better buy fleetwise than 2 transports, which cannot attack.
2 - However, an AC is strictly defensive unless pared with some other builds, and you need more transport to threaten UK
3 - I think you can build a baltic fleet and threaten UK and USA, while still protecting vs USSR and getting Egypt.
4 - EVERY game that has a bid uses it in their strategy. Regardless of whether you like CS or not, the bid build will be an important part, just like every other strategy in bid games
5 - With a 6+ bid, Egypt is pretty safe to be conquered, leaving the fleet free to merge in SZ7. Also, as you will be going KGF, a smart axis player will rush to help Germany take africa. It is hard/risky to build an IC and protect vs UK invasion and have a sufficient fleet. One of them must go.

Squirecam

Switch,

I’da just shuffled through Fin/Nor and worked around you until I felt like dealing with you…probably about the time you start choosing between Fighters defending your fleet or fighters defending your capital.

Squire:

Why not get the carrier, merge the fleet, move back to SZ5 (Baltic Sea) and then build transports?  Now you have a BB, CV, DD, 2 SS, 2 FIG defending.  There’s no way England/USA could stop you then.  And if they did, their fleets would be out of position for at least 2 turns giving you 3 turns to either rebuild or do serious damage to the eastern front.

[squirecam]

@Jennifer:

Squire:

Why not get the carrier, merge the fleet, move back to SZ5 (Baltic Sea) and then build transports?  Now you have a BB, CV, DD, 2 SS, 2 FIG defending.  There’s no way England/USA could stop you then.  And if they did, their fleets would be out of position for at least 2 turns giving you 3 turns to either rebuild or do serious damage to the eastern front.

If you buy AC/trans as opposed to AC G1 and trans G3:

1 - you force UK on R1 to defend their home. They cant have fleet+India IC+uk inf. Something usually is skipped. (I personally do something, but I feel its risky and frankly, no one plays my own strat gainst me. :)  )
2 - I dont want UK/USA fleets to merge and live. I have the sea/air advantage in attacking, so why not use my offensive advantage now.
3 - With just AC buy, UK can afford a fleet (no risk of UK invasion G2), making a G2 attack on SZ8 a no-go (28O vs 16D instead of 28O and 28D, with UK having USA trans fodder and Germany risking its air.)

Squirecam

[trihero]

I didn’t mean to sound mean, U-505. I too think the full canadian shield is a one trick pony, I was just pointing out that your argument that it was spending too many IPCs on navy wasn’t well-founded.  :lol:

And before you attack Crazy Straw on the grounds that he has very few posts, remember that he is MarvinMartian of Caspian Sub, the most vocal and probably most pivotal of the CSub editors/players. He taught me just about everything I know in 3 quick, humiliating defeats close to a year ago. He’s like Yoda or Bruce Lee and I’m hairbrained Luke running around or Jackie Chan  :-P

I think even though the Canadian Shield paper might not be that useful to KGF players, it is a very important staging ground for managing the German navy in general. It opens up a lot of thought about what you can do with your German navy, and how a 2 transport buy can be an alternative to the normal carrier buy.

[Guest]

And remember too Tri that I learned from you… in just TWO games.  And since then you are winless against me :-P

Just teasing Teammate!

[Jennifer]

@squirecam:

@Jennifer:

Squire:

Why not get the carrier, merge the fleet, move back to SZ5 (Baltic Sea) and then build transports?  Now you have a BB, CV, DD, 2 SS, 2 FIG defending.  There’s no way England/USA could stop you then.  And if they did, their fleets would be out of position for at least 2 turns giving you 3 turns to either rebuild or do serious damage to the eastern front.

If you buy AC/trans as opposed to AC G1 and trans G3:

1 - you force UK on R1 to defend their home. They cant have fleet+India IC+uk inf. Something usually is skipped. (I personally do something, but I feel its risky and frankly, no one plays my own strat gainst me. :)  )
2 - I dont want UK/USA fleets to merge and live. I have the sea/air advantage in attacking, so why not use my offensive advantage now.
3 - With just AC buy, UK can afford a fleet (no risk of UK invasion G2), making a G2 attack on SZ8 a no-go (28O vs 16D instead of 28O and 28D, with UK having USA trans fodder and Germany risking its air.)

Squirecam

You know, I havn’t seen a game where England builds an IC in India.  I wonder how that would play out???  It never worked well for me in classic (then again, neither did the IC in S Africa).

So yes, by building a carrier with germany you force England to not build an IC in India.  I personally wouldn’t buy one anyway, because I’d want the carrier to ensure you don’t pull any luftwaffe strafing runs on my transports.

However, you hardly have the combat advantage.  As I said in the other thread, the US is more then capable of blocking your battleship before it can join the baltic fleet.  That’ll cause a 1 round detremental delay, since 1 BB, 1 TRN is much easier to dismantle then 1 BB, 1CV, 1 DD, 2 TRN, 2 SS (or 3 SS if you don’t go to Canada).  CV, DD, 2SS, TRn, 2 FIG looses to CV, 3 TRN, BB, 2 FIG, BMB 65.4% of the time.  That’s about 50/50 in my book with any left overs being cleaned up by the DD, 1 TRN (other used to block the German fleet from leaving Med), 3 FIG, BMB from America. (US has to buy a CV for this many aircraft in the battle.)  Also, note, in the above England/Germany attack, there’s a 65.4% out of that 65.4% chance that England will retain the bomber, carrier and battleship after the battle.

Anyway I see it, the German fleet dies in round 2 and the allies are up to full transport strength at the end of round 2.  The allies are down 2-3 fighters and a bomber maybe, but that’s easily replaced, actually.  Especially if the now weakened German forces don’t seem to be rolling exceptionally well against England and Russia allowing the United States to go reclaim Africa.

So end scenario, most likely:

End of Round 2:

Brition: 3 Transports, 1 Carrier, 1 Battleship (damaged), maybe a second carrier/transport from Indian Ocean comming around Africa to help.
America: Carrier, 2 Fighters, 2 Destroyers, Submarine, Battleship, 7 Transports
Germany: Battleship, Transport (locked in Med, or to be sunk in Round 3)  Germany now down 1 or 2 fighters after naval battle.
Russia: Submarine
(Japan full strength plus whatever they built, they’re inconsequential to the Atlantic in Rounds 1-4 at least.)

[trihero]

You know, I havn’t seen a game where England builds an IC in India.  I wonder how that would play out???  It never worked well for me in classic (then again, neither did the IC in S Africa).

I used to see this ALL the time playing against new players. It just seems so intuitive because there’s an aa gun there all ready to defend you from the mighty Japanese airforce and you want to defend India because it’s cool. I think Octo was the first player I’ve seen that intuitively AVOIDED building an IC there. Could be because of all the CSub papers or just good common sense, because ultimately your money is better spent defeating Germany quickly.

I was randomly reading Don Moody’s papers one day and I thought an IC in India works extremely well in Classic with no bid or something? Like you would build mass tanks there and ruthlessly suicide them against Japanese incursions along the south. Apparently it doenst’ work at all with those large bids you people are used to, though.

[Jennifer]

IC in India makes sense only because the land is worth 3 and that means you can get some actual units there.  But it’s very hard to defend and requires Russia sap infantry to move to assist, iMHO

[U-505]

@trihero:

I didn’t mean to sound mean, U-505. I too think the full canadian shield is a one trick pony, I was just pointing out that your argument that it was spending too many IPCs on navy wasn’t well-founded.  :lol:

And before you attack Crazy Straw on the grounds that he has very few posts, remember that he is MarvinMartian of Caspian Sub, the most vocal and probably most pivotal of the CSub editors/players. He taught me just about everything I know in 3 quick, humiliating defeats close to a year ago. He’s like Yoda or Bruce Lee and I’m hairbrained Luke running around or Jackie Chan  :-P

I think even though the Canadian Shield paper might not be that useful to KGF players, it is a very important staging ground for managing the German navy in general. It opens up a lot of thought about what you can do with your German navy, and how a 2 transport buy can be an alternative to the normal carrier buy.

Oh yeah. Certainly you must have a good reason for doing a large German naval build. I was just defending my position for my CV/TP build as opposed to the Baltic buy.

I believe Crazystraw and I are past that. I don’t doubt Crazystraw’s abilities at all. I’ve seen some pretty good stuff batted around Caspian Sub, but I just thought Canadian Shield was easy to recognize coming. I took our exchange personally and that’s a weakness with this game. I have to work on that certainly. Clear heads always prevail in A&A.

In a KJF game it would work much better, yes. But, the UK player would almost have to be bullheaded to purchase an IC with 4-5 German TP’s in the Atlantic. That’s a lesson in Capital defense right there.

The biggest concern I have is that a Baltic TP buy almost forces you to make the fleet consolidation in sz7. Depending on how many units would be needed to defend UK against a landing, a large UK1 air build would likely make short work of the Baltic fleet and if the German fleet merged in sz7, it might be worthwhile for the Allies to do a couple strafe attacks while the German navy is making the Channel Dash. It is situational, for sure, but I would never make a UK1 IC purchase if I saw a German TP build. I’m not sure if I would ever make an IC build. But, the GenCon and Origins tourneys definitely add a wrinkle with their point system for winning.