German bomber strategy - How to play and How to counter

[axis-dominion]

umm…if you don’t play with VCs, that changes everything…then US can focus way more on KGF, without fear of losing on the pac side. imo, a no VC game is VERY different from the one we are discussing…it is like apples and oranges different. sorry

I should add that we do not play with victory cities or bids.

[axis-dominion]

as i have mentioned a few times before in this thread (look back at some of my points), the real advantage of the bomber stack goes exclusively to germany. no other nation comes close to the advantage they have in utilizing this strategy, due to the unique combination of favorable factors. i don’t wanna repeat the argument, as i have mentioned it a few times. america is a distant 2nd, since it desperately relies on navy, is not as centralized, and starts with a significantly smaller ground army.

@Baron:

@Zhukov44:

Theoretically, bombers are not unbalanced vrs. fleet.

**What’s making them unbalanced is the combination of deterring Allied navy, bombing raids, killer range, overwhelming superiority in land trades, and utility in major land battles.  All that together makes them formidable.  **

This provides a good summary of the tactical advantage of Strategic Bombers stack, IMO.

[axis-dominion]

one of the characteristics of bm’s (bmnielsen’s) version of the all-bomber strat is that he gets italy big fast, and it’s italy that allows his bombers to reach ever farther into the atlantic (via control of gib), mid east, and africa. my current thinking on how to counter this strat is to strike down italy as fast as possible (call it a KIF), so as to defeat germany’s primary ally very early on. my thinking is to first ensure absolute control of egypt (which is relatively easier to do in this strat), and then to flood the med with subs and the threat of many planes. make the med as hostile as possible for the trannies, and do whatever you can to keep control of gib.

i’m noticing that more and more players are trying out this bomber stacking idea…it’s caught a lot of attention and attraction lately. i would differentiate between the “all-bomber” strat that bm is into, and the “mass-bomber” strat that others are doing, which is a slower build-up of the bombers. my guess is that others aren’t as confident about just going all bombers as bm is. i think the all bomber variant is more powerful, so far from my experience and observations, but the mass bomber approach is also hard to play against.

[Adam514]

@Baron:

@Zhukov44:

Theoretically, bombers are not unbalanced vrs. fleet. �

What’s making them unbalanced is the combination of deterring Allied navy, bombing raids, killer range, overwhelming superiority in land trades, and utility in major land battles. �All that together makes them formidable. �

This provides a good summary of the tactical advantage of Strategic Bombers stack, IMO.

Also Germany isn’t forced to commit to an attack when it reckons that it isn’t in their best interest.

Another thing is even if you could somehow afford those 8 loaded carriers in Atlantic (lol), that still only gives you 1 protected sea zone, so once you move out of 91, no reinforcements can make it to the front.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Adam514:

@Baron:

@Zhukov44:

Theoretically, bombers are not unbalanced vrs. fleet.

What’s making them unbalanced is the combination of deterring Allied navy, bombing raids, killer range, overwhelming superiority in land trades, and utility in major land battles. All that together makes them formidable.

This provides a good summary of the tactical advantage of Strategic Bombers stack, IMO.

Also Germany isn’t forced to commit to an attack when it reckons that it isn’t in their best interest.

Another thing is even if you could somehow afford those 8 loaded carriers in Atlantic (lol), that still only gives you 1 protected sea zone, so once you move out of 91, no reinforcements can make it to the front.

What about moving into SZ109 to get a full 6 Fgs scramble from England and Scotland?
This SZ can be a way-point before unloading land units in any TT within 3 SZs range.
Reinforcement could came from Halifax in Nova Scotia, SZ106, directly into SZ109 which can unload troops 1 turn out of two (going back and forth).
SZ110 can be a drop point to Bordeaux or Holland Belgium (1 out of 2 turns) and it can still be protected by 3 Fgs scramble coming from England.

[Adam514]

@Baron:

@Adam514:

@Baron:

@Zhukov44:

Theoretically, bombers are not unbalanced vrs. fleet.

What’s making them unbalanced is the combination of deterring Allied navy, bombing raids, killer range, overwhelming superiority in land trades, and utility in major land battles. All that together makes them formidable.

This provides a good summary of the tactical advantage of Strategic Bombers stack, IMO.

Also Germany isn’t forced to commit to an attack when it reckons that it isn’t in their best interest.

Another thing is even if you could somehow afford those 8 loaded carriers in Atlantic (lol), that still only gives you 1 protected sea zone, so once you move out of 91, no reinforcements can make it to the front.

What about moving into SZ109 to get a full 6 Fgs scramble from England and Scotland?
This SZ can be a way-point before unloading land units in any TT within 3 Szs range.
Reinforcement could came from Halifax, SZ106, directly into SZ109 wich can unload troops 1 turn out of two (going back and forth).
SZ110 can be a drop point to Bordeaux or Holland Belgium (1 out of 2 turns) and it can still be protected by 3 Fgs scramble coming from England.

That would work if there wasn’t a massive threat on both sea zones simultaneously.nvm misread, but 1 out of 2 turns gives lots of time for Germany to either increase their airforce enough to prevent a 110 landing the next turn or beef up ground forces enough to take back Normandy

[baron Münchhausen]

I’m talking about moving the whole fleet into SZ109 to merge with incoming transports.
Next turn, empty transports goes to Nova Scotia SZ106 while the massive fleet unload into either Normandy or Holland.
Next turn, this massive fleet (8 Carriers!!!) return to SZ109 to protect incoming loaded transports.
And so forth,

The pace is slowed down but not entirely impossible to protect the reinforcements TPs.

Or reinforcement transports can wait an additional turn in SZ106 if UK is already loaded of ground units ready to make a debarkment.

The first two turns is a full blown attack, the third is calm (TPs coming in SZ109), the fourth turn can continue to unload.

This is the fastest rate I can think of.

[variance]

Guys, I don’t think anyone actually meant that USA would literally build 8 carriers.  The reason for 8 is just for argument sake because 8 carriers + 16 fighters = $288 and 24 bombers = $288.  Its a common denominator thing.  His idea was to pint out that carriers defend better than bombers attack dollar for dollar, but yeah there’s a lot more to it than dollar for dollar.  Its all about position and threat projection

[axis-dominion]

Sure, that might work. Of course while allies are busy amassing carriers, many planes atop the carriers, many planes in UK for scramble, many more planes protecting the invasion force, and many, many tps for the shuck, moscow will be smoked, Middle East smeared, and the rest of the world painted yellow.

@Baron:

I’m talking about moving the whole fleet into SZ109 to merge with incoming transports.
Next turn, empty transports goes to Nova Scotia SZ106 while the massive fleet unload into either Normandy or Holland.
Next turn, this massive fleet (8 Carriers!!!) return to SZ109 to protect incoming loaded transports.
And so forth,

The pace is slowed down but not entirely impossible to protect the reinforcements TPs.

Or reinforcement transports can wait an additional turn in SZ106 if UK is already loaded of ground units ready to make a debarkment.

The first two turns is a full blown attack, the third is calm (TPs coming in SZ109), the fourth turn can continue to unload.

This is the fastest rate I can think of.

[Adam514]

@variance:

Guys, I don’t think anyone actually meant that USA would literally build 8 carriers.� The reason for 8 is just for argument sake because 8 carriers + 16 fighters = $288 and 24 bombers = $288.� Its a common denominator thing.� His idea was to pint out that carriers defend better than bombers attack dollar for dollar, but yeah there’s a lot more to it than dollar for dollar.� Its all about position and threat projection

And I’m saying that even at that exaggerated amount of US Atlantic navy, it doesn’t do that much good versus bombers.

[baron Münchhausen]

@axis-dominion:

Sure, that might work. Of course while allies are busy amassing carriers, many planes atop the carriers, many planes in UK for scramble, many more planes protecting the invasion force, and many, many tps for the shuck, moscow will be smoked, Middle East smeared, and the rest of the world painted yellow.

Fighters and even Tactical Bombers can also be used to attack in the amphibious assault.

How many German’s Bombers can be a more realistic number?

[Adam514]

@Baron:

@axis-dominion:

Sure, that might work. Of course while allies are busy amassing carriers, many planes atop the carriers, many planes in UK for scramble, many more planes protecting the invasion force, and many, many tps for the shuck, moscow will be smoked, Middle East smeared, and the rest of the world painted yellow.

Fighters and even Tactical Bombers can also be used to attack in the amphibious assault.

How many German’s Bombers can be a more realistic number?

15 bombers sounds about right for US4.

[baron Münchhausen]

So the big battle would be made of 15 Bombers against 5 Full Carrier, for 180 IPCs.

If the Fighter are the last casualties (assuming to lose all Carriers) we get this results:
Overall %*: A. survives: 10.6% D. survives: 87.8% No one survives: 1.6%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=10&dBom=&dTra=5&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=5&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

Keeping Carriers as the last casualties:
Overall %*: A. survives: 29.4% D. survives: 69.4% No one survives: 1.2%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=11&dBom=&dTra=5&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=4&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

There is no Destroyer fodder in this mix, let’s suppose 9 Destroyers for 72 IPCs.

15 StBs against 3 Full Carriers and 9 Destroyers (180 IPCs)
Overall %*: A. survives: 13.4% D. survives: 84.9% No one survives: 1.7%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=6&dBom=&dTra=3&dSub=&dDes=9&dCru=&dCar=3&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

So, there is some room to buy a few transports to bring troops: 5 transports would cost 35 IPCs (almost the same as a Full Carrier)
Now the result is inverted with only 4 Full Carriers to protect these 5 TPS:
Overall %*: A. survives: 68.1% D. survives: 28.9% No one survives: 3.1%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=8&dBom=&dTra=5&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=4&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

However a full 3 Fgs scramble to protect this little fleet could work very well:
Overall %*: A. survives: 9.1% D. survives: 89.6% No one survives: 1.4%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=11&dBom=&dTra=5&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=4&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

[Adam514]

@Baron:

So the big battle would be made of 15 Bombers against 5 Full Carrier, for 180 IPCs.

If the Fighter are the last casualties (assuming to lose all Carriers) we get this results:
Overall %*: A. survives: 10.6% D. survives: 87.8% No one survives: 1.6%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=10&dBom=&dTra=5&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=5&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

15 StBs against 3 Full Carriers and 9 Destroyers (180 IPCs)
Overall %*: A. survives: 13.4% D. survives: 84.9% No one survives: 1.7%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=6&dBom=&dTra=3&dSub=&dDes=9&dCru=&dCar=3&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

So, there is some room to buy a few transports to bring troops: 5 transports would cost 35 IPCs (almost the same as a Full Carrier)
Now the result is inverted with only 4 Full Carriers to protect these 5 TPS:
Overall %*: A. survives: 68.1% D. survives: 28.9% No one survives: 3.1%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=15&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=8&dBom=&dTra=5&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=4&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Tra-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

However a full 3 Fgs scramble to protect this little fleet could work very well:
Overall %*: A. survives: 9.1% D. survives: 89.6% No one survives: 1.4%

That’s only in 91, without the other 8-10 or so figs and tacs and the odd sub.

[baron Münchhausen]

Introduced Advanced Shipyard Tech for all players and the trick will be done.  :-D
Bombers would have more hard times… :evil:

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Well stated, axis dominion!  I won my first test game of Dark Skies when the US spent too much money in the Atlantic, Germany didn’t take the bait of attacking a powerful navy off of Gibraltar, and Japan painted Asia yellow.

In my second test game, I’m playing the Allies.  My game plan is building a strong Russian artillery force so that I can block Germany’s advance to the Middle East.  I will have to see if it gets shoved back as his ground forces advance.

[Faramir]

My 2 cents:

Buy a few AAAs and Fighters as Russia. Be sort of aggressive.

Threaten Germany in 2 separate locations on the same turn. The bombers can only take out 1 threat effectively.

Suicide transports to make landings in Europe.

Neuter Italy and blockade Germany with all subs.

Build bombers to bomb German factories and kill the bombers if Germany leaves them exposed.

You probably won’t be able to do all of these in 1 game but you can do a few of them.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

1)  Buying AAAs and fighters as Russia prevents them from being aggressive.  If you want to be aggressive, you need artillery so your attack is better than their defense.

2)  The German bombers can take out one threat on one turn, and respond to the second threat the next turn.  With say 6 infantry and 18 bombers, they can kill 15 infantry losing just their own sacrificial German soldiers.  Hence it is easy to respond to the second threat by just building a small stack of sacrificial troops.

3)  That is a massive cost for the allies compared to the cost for the Germans to respond.

4)  All subs can raid Normandy and Norway for 5 PUs a round… not a bad contribution but not devastating.  If you send a bunch of subs into the med to convoy raid Italy, they will build a destroyer their turn and the Germans can bomb the subs to bits on their turn.

5. Allied bombers cannot reach the main factory in Germany, making the bomb runs of minimal utility.

I would love to see a posted game where a strategy works.  I think that the Allies have a chance if they can prevent the Germans from reaching the oil fields.

@Faramir:

My 2 cents:

Buy a few AAAs and Fighters as Russia. Be sort of aggressive.

Threaten Germany in 2 separate locations on the same turn. The bombers can only take out 1 threat effectively.

Suicide transports to make landings in Europe.

Neuter Italy and blockade Germany with all subs.

Build bombers to bomb German factories and kill the bombers if Germany leaves them exposed.

You probably won’t be able to do all of these in 1 game but you can do a few of them.

[amanntai]

@axis-dominion:

@Arthur:

Sure, 8 loaded carriers would be sufficient to prevent the Germans from launching a bomber raid against the Allied navy.  Keep in mind that such a build requires 4 full turns of US spending in the Atlantic plus a turn or two for moving the fleet into position.  Time is on the German side in Dark Skies.  Once the Germans reach the oilfields, their income will start matching that of the US.  Also consider that Germany has quite a bit of flexibility.  The bombers can be used to destroy Russia, navies, London, and supporting raids on territories with medium-sized stacks of troops.

In my last game, the US tried a KGF strategy with a very large navy off the coast of Gibraltar on round 3.  The Germans mostly ignored it.  From the base in Paris, the bombers could limit the options of the Allied navy and also force Russia to retreat back towards Moscow.  Meanwhile, Japan was about to capture India and it seemed inevitable for a total victory on J7-J8.

ABH, thank you. you speak a lot of sense. i’m sorry, but when people focus on things like “loaded carrier vs bomber–bring it on!”, they’re not really understanding the difficulty. i guess they have to just experience it for themselves. to think that US can build 8 fully loaded carriers in the atlantic is, imo, showing inexperience and lack of really understanding just what kind of punishment will be delivered by the foe on the other side of the map.

I don’t think you should call people inexperienced if you aren’t even going to read their posts. As I clearly pointed out:

2. The US doesn’t need 8 carriers. That provides only a 7% survival for 24 bombers, obviously this is overkill. I haven’t done the math, but I’m pretty sure the US could get by with a smaller fleet.

I wasn’t suggesting the US build 8 carriers. I was showing that bombers can’t possibly deter Allied fleets if Germany loses all their bombers trying to kill the Allied fleet. I’m not the only one, and I’m certainly the least experienced, to point out that if Germany commits its bombers to stop an Allied invasion, Germany loses its bombers, its threat projection, and the IPCs it spent.

Furthermore, you called Zhukov’s point “totally right”, even though I pointed out that DizzKneeLand pointed out that fixing SBR doesn’t fix Dark Skies (at least how DizzKneeLand does Dark Skies) because SBR isn’t part of the strategy. How can Zhukov be totally right when his (her?) solution doesn’t even work?

I believe you spent more time looking at users’ post counts rather than their posts.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Amanntai, I am currently playing the Allies against a Dark Skies German.  His bombers are severely hindering my American build in the Atlantic.  On G3, he will have 11 bombers.  I will need at least 3 loaded aircraft carriers to escort transports to Africa or Western Europe.  By the time I get those carriers, he will have even more bombers.  I probably will need 6 carriers in the Atlantic before I start ferrying troops over.  That is 216 PUs or three full turns of production.  Just having the threat of the bombers is delaying an Allied invasion by a couple of turns.  I decided to play KJF strategy so I won’t be able to start building in the Atlantic until tun 3 or 4.  That means an expected landing on turn ~7.  It is quite frustrating as the Allied player.

When I do bring my fleet across the pond, I fully expect that he will ignore my carriers and simply plan to counterattack the troops that I drop on his shores.  He will not be trading bombers for carriers.  I don’t think that he will be very concerned about amphibious landings until turn 9 or so.  That is quite late compared to other German strats where the Allies have a good invasion force on turn 6-7.

The huge bonus for him is the potential threat of many bombers forcing me to spend heavily on defense instead of transports + troops.  Every round of the building fleets in the Atlantic is another round  where he is beating up Russia, sending his troops to the oil fields, and further expansion of his bomber fleet.