XPAD2 Game 21 Dicer's Creed (axis) vs Team GARL (allies+12)

[seth4god]

I need to see it on a map, but I’m leaning towards vetoing the sub edit. That sub was moved prior to combat rolls and then edited after said rolls and I have no idea about the movement from the edited location either.

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 2

Purchase Units - British
            British buy 1 armour, 1 carrier, 1 factory_minor and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
            UK_Pacific repair damage of 6x factory_major; Remaining resources: 15 PUs;
            UK_Pacific buy 5 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - British
            1 battleship moved from 79 Sea Zone to 80 Sea Zone
            1 cruiser moved from 76 Sea Zone to 80 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from Persia to 80 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 80 Sea Zone to Iraq
            1 infantry moved from Persia to Iraq
            1 armour moved from Egypt to Iraq
            1 mech_infantry moved from Egypt to Iraq
            1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Egypt to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
            1 bomber moved from Malta to Iraq
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Egypt to Trans-Jordan
            1 submarine moved from 97 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Malta to 96 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Iceland to United Kingdom

Combat - British
            Battle in 96 Sea Zone
                British attack with 1 fighter, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber
                Italians defend with 1 destroyer
                British win with 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
                Casualties for British: 1 submarine
                Casualties for Italians: 1 destroyer
            Battle in Iraq
                British attack with 1 armour, 1 bomber, 3 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                Neutral_Axis defend with 3 infantry
                British win, taking Iraq from Neutral_Axis with 1 armour, 1 bomber, 3 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 9
                Casualties for Neutral_Axis: 3 infantry
            Battle in Anglo Egyptian Sudan
                British attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Italians defend with 1 infantry
                British win, taking Anglo Egyptian Sudan from Italians with 1 artillery and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - British
            1 destroyer moved from 81 Sea Zone to 80 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Iraq to Persia
            1 mech_infantry moved from India to Eastern Persia
                  British take Eastern Persia from Neutral_Allies
            2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from India to Eastern Persia
            2 fighters moved from Eastern Persia to West India
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Eastern Persia to West India
            1 aaGun moved from India to West India
            1 artillery and 9 infantry moved from India to West India
            2 infantry moved from Union of South Africa to Rhodesia
            1 battleship and 1 cruiser moved from 123 Sea Zone to 106 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 96 Sea Zone to Trans-Jordan

Place Units - British
            1 factory_minor placed in Persia
            1 carrier placed in 106 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 infantry placed in Union of South Africa

Turn Complete - British
            British collect 31 PUs; end with 31 PUs total

Place Units - UK_Pacific
            5 infantry placed in India
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by British from West India: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by British to Burma: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
            UK_Pacific collect 14 PUs; end with 14 PUs total
            Some Units in India change ownership: 5 infantry

[Karl7]

Hm, I may make a change here.

Hold on…

[Karl7]

na, never mind

[seth4god]

I’m going to stick with that sub veto. So you have a sub in 91 and one less in 28. Does this change anything with the allies before Italy goes?

[Karl7]

Did the sub engage in combat or get in a combat situation?

If not, then it was an illegal move, thus I think Garg would be entitled to change it.

[Karl7]

Yeah, that sub did not engage in combat, so Garg can edit it.  I don’t know what difference it would make anyway.  He could have not moved it and then changed it on ncm as many times as he wanted.

[Karl7]

Indeed, don’t we all make NCM on combat moves?  I do mostly just because I know I may forget something by the time I get to NCM…… I don’t have a problem with it.  :|

[seth4god]

The only units allowed to move in both combat and ncm phases are air units regardless of whether or not they were involved in combat. Technically the only units that should move in the combat phase are units that will or conceivably could be involved in combat should a scramble or intercept decision be made. People make what should have been strictly ncm moves in the combat move phase. I don’t mind that bit, but once dice have been rolled I’m pretty hesitant to allow those units to move elsewhere.

No dice were rolled in the Atlantic, but they were in the pac and that’s the direction that those fleet units headed toward. Maybe that was the intention all along or maybe the results influenced that decision (consciously or subconsciously). I don’t know, I’m not a mind reader. I’m not trying to imply anything, I’m simply standing by my previous statement about edits after combat dice.

[seth4god]

If he hadn’t moved it during the combat move phase  then I wouldn’t have ANY issue with that edit. It’s simply the fact that it moved once prior to combat rolls and then edited it after those rolls.

[Karl7]

Well, it’s a small move, but important we get this sorted out since I make provisional NCMs on CM all the time.

My point is that it was illegal to move the sub anyway and should not have counted or been allowed, so it makes no sense in making Garg stick with an illegal move, regardless of the dice. The other way seems punitive.  Besides the remedy for an illegal move is to withdraw the move, not affirm it.

I vote that “provisional” NCMs made during combat moves can be changed regardless of dice. That is technically the rule anyway.

If we can’t get a consensus then we should submit to the moderator so we know where we stand going forward.

[boldfresh]

i haven’t looked at a map but noncoms made in combat can be taken back whenever because they are illegal, to my understanding.  obviously though, one should just never make them because of the confusion it can cause.

[seth4god]

@seththenewb:

Also, I failed to talk to my partner to figure out what his mind is on the matter. But let’s discuss edits so we’re all agreed before any potential issues arise. I know you both and doubt we’ll have any issues whatsoever, but I figure it’d be easier to get this clear before any of the 4 of us are influenced by the board. I’m fine with ncm edits as lon as they’re stated for the most part. So long as they’re not too late and don’t directly affect something that already occured. I’m also okay with combat edits for things like walk-ins that should be obvious. Combat edits involving dice I will probably have an issue with. It depends on the circumstances, but assume that my decision will be a no from the get go. Feel free to ask though as I can be reasonable. Everyone good with edits? Want no edits after that turn? Something else?

@Karl7:

@Gargantua:

@seththenewb:

Started out ugly and got downright nasty with your 3 hits in sz111.�� :|

So about the editing, what’s the verdict on that?

I think we are on page with your comments. ��I prefer friendly games, as I am sure you do!

I generally work off the principle that all edits are fair game until dice are rolled. ��Once dice are rolled, it’s openly up to the opposing party to decide what they will allow.

A position of being reasonable is best. ��I like to play my opponents at their best game, and I am sure they feel the same!

Agree

Bolded for emphasis. I stated prior to any sramble/intercept orders on G1 what my position on edits after combat dice were.  All of us have made changes to ncm after dice, but none of those changes that I’ve noticed involved a unit that was moved prior to combat dice, not counting air units. I haven’t had an issue with any of those other edits and I will continue not having issues with similar edits in the future. But as originally stated before this game really started, I would have issues with edits after dice were thrown.

Most everyone makes ncm moves during the combat move phase. And I also do it from time to time. It’s not my intention to police anyone or wag my finger at them and tell them they can’t do that. But I will protest that those moves stick if someone tries to make post battle edits/moves involving those units.

No combat happened in Europe. But the Iwo Jima battle did cost more than was probably expected and it’s concievable that the decision to move the Atlantic fleet including the already moved sub into the Pacific was partly influenced by the results of that battle. It’s also entirely possible that that move was planned from the start in view of the threat to India and/or Euro Axis weaker start. I couldn’t tell you and it really doesn’t matter in my opinion on this.

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

i haven’t looked at a map but noncoms made in combat can be taken back whenever because they are illegal, to my understanding.  obviously though, one should just never make them because of the confusion it can cause.

i have no dog in the fight but i will say that noncoms made in the combat move phase are illegal - moves in the combat phase can only be made if attacking or in order to avoid attacking.

[Karl7]

NCMs are per se influenced by the dice, so ergo if a NCM is made out of turn during CM and is influenced by the rolls, it should be changed. The problem here is not that the NCM was influenced by the dice, but that the it was made out of order.

The first order issue here is not “dice influence”, it’s move order.  It was an illegal move.  But as we all know, the fact that it was illegal is pointless because the penalty would be to withdraw/prevent the move and then make the player move it properly on NCM.

Let’s see what Dutchman and Garg say.  Again, if we can’t get agreement then we need a ruling.

The issue here is you need a bright line rule that you can NCM on CM or not.  Otherwise there will be too much second guessing.  I prefer that you can NCM on CM just because it will allow for less errors and the other way–that you are stuck-- is too draconian and in fact not in agreement with “the rules” anyway.

[Gargantua]

Apologies,

It was a misclick/error from when I was in the planning stages of my moves.  I was reviewing some different looks, including a Gibraltar stack, and recalled my navy without seeing that I had moved the sub there separately.  The units including the sub were to move in Non-Combat.  Apologies again for confusion.

If there was technical bearing or a purpose for committing the sub in the Combat Phase to gain any kind of theoretical or optical advantage -  I would agree entirely agree with your position Seth and leave it as is.  But it’s an error.

And to clarify - “Once dice are rolled, it’s openly up to the opposing party to decide what they will allow.” I do stand by this statement, and this is my perspective:"

#1. The movement was technically Illegal, and therefore must be changed.
#2. The movement was an error, thus in my view - The piece had not moved yet.

[dutchmand]

I’m OK with the sub movement, so we will go with it.  I do agree with Seth generally though that if you are moving units in CM you intend them to be permanent, regardless of dice or whether it was “illegal”.  I am very careful when I play TripleA to ALWAYS do only CM during the CM phase.

When I do a walk-in, I take 1 unit always and then move in the rest non-com.  Although not a direct comparison here to the sub movement, if I walk 4 units into Suiyuan on CM, but I only needed to walk in 1 to take it, well tough.  I should be stuck with the 4 I moved in.  But that is different because that is a “legal” combat move.  So, from here  on, let’s try to do only “legal” CM during the CM phase, and we can avoid this issue.

[Gargantua]

Thanks for your thoughts Dutch.

Where’s the Italian turn? :p

Hope you are doing okay at the hospital Seth…

[seth4god]

Also, from now on, legal move or not; all units in CM are locked there. Feel free to make ncm moves in the cm phase. Like I said I’m not going to try and police whether people move in the cm or ncm phase. But what moves in that phase is locked from further movement.

[seth4god]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.9

Game History

Round: 2

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 transport; Remaining resources: 2 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Tobruk to Egypt
            1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Kenya to Anglo Egyptian Sudan
            1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Egypt
            2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to 95 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
            1 artillery and 4 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Yugoslavia
            1 armour moved from Romania to Belarus
            1 armour moved from Slovakia Hungary to Belarus
            1 cruiser moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from Bulgaria to Yugoslavia

Combat - Italians
            Battle in Egypt
                Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                British defend with 1 harbour; ANZAC defend with 1 infantry
                Italians win, taking Egypt from British with 1 armour, 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 infantry
            Battle in Belarus
                Italians attack with 2 armour
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Italians win, taking Belarus from Russians with 2 armour remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Anglo Egyptian Sudan
                Italians attack with 1 artillery, 1 bomber and 1 infantry
                British defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Italians win, taking Anglo Egyptian Sudan from British with 1 artillery and 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for British: 1 artillery and 2 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Yugoslavia
                Italians attack with 1 artillery and 6 infantry
                Neutral_Allies defend with 3 infantry
                1 artillery owned by the Italians and 3 infantry owned by the Italians retreated to Northern Italy
                Neutral_Allies win with 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -9
                Casualties for Italians: 3 infantry

Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 artillery moved from Southern France to Northern Italy
            1 destroyer moved from 95 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Alexandria
            1 fighter moved from Egypt to Alexandria
            2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Tobruk to Alexandria
            1 infantry moved from British Somaliland to Ethiopia

Place Units - Italians
            1 transport placed in 95 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 17 PUs; end with 19 PUs total
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 24 PUs