AARHE: Phase 2: Naval Combat

[Imperious Leader]

i go for 3 or 5

[tekkyy]

@Jennifer:

Solution 5:
Which ever side wants wants to engage (assuming one side does not want to engage) uses attack values giving the defender the edge.

If we won’t break the game basics of active/passive turn…then defender obviously can’t choose/attack.

That in turns makes no. 5 basically no. 3.

You build your ships in a harbor, not on the open seas.  That means if the enemy wants to sink your new boats, he’d have to attack your harbors, thus, you would get defense bonus.

yeah but the siuation we are modelling is that the enemy blockaded a seazone rather than attacking your new ships in your harbours

[tekkyy]

Another look at anti-air.

Land anti-air
*unit is ID (infrastructure defense)
*D6 roll on 1, then D6 roll on 1 to destroy or 2 to force retreat
*multiple allowed per territory

IPC    1-hit    1-retreat    1-hit+1-retreat    2-hit      2-hit+1-retreat
1 ID      5      2.8%    2.8%        -                        -            -
2 ID      10    4.6%    4.6%        0.0%                  0.0%      -
3 ID      15    5.8%    5.8%        0.4%                  0.4%      0.0%
4 ID      20    6.4%    6.4%        0.3%                  0.3%      0.0%

Comment: Percentages do double with radar tech. Need to consider hit+retreat %. IC (industrial complex) comes with 2 IDs. VC (victory city) comes with 1 ID. So Germany has 4 IDs. Knock back power of 13%, 26% with radar per cycle.

Naval anti-air
*a number of D6 rolls hitting on 1
*CA 4, BB 3, CV+DD 2

IPC      1-hit      2-hit      3-hit
CA            15      38.5%    11.6%    1.5%
BB              20      34.7%    13.9%    0.5%
CV            16      27.8%    2.8%      -
DD            10      27.8%    2.8%      -

scenario: 2 FTR (fighter) attack 1 BB (battleship)
attacker: 50% chance 1-hit, 25% 2-hit
defender: 34.7% chance 1-hit, 13.9% 2-hit

Comment: BB has 49% chance of hitting at least one FTR. Damaged BB still fire anti-air. 2 FTR has little chance against 1 BB.

scenario: 1 FTR (fighter) attack 1 DD (destroyer)
attacker: 25% chance 1-hit
defender: 27.8% chance 1-hit + 2.8% 2-hit

Comment: Even a destroyer is so “tough”. DD has 31% chance of hitting the FTR at least once. 1 FTR can’t even deal with 1 DD.

Suggestions:
Would it be realistic…
*Naval anti-air not preemptive to air units
*reduct anti-air dice to CA 3 BB 2 CV+DD 1

[Imperious Leader]

Those numbers would seem to back up your claim. I would make that change on the draft.

WE cant have DD too effective because they already have ASW duty.

a radical route would be to make naval fighters take two hits… but this adds too many new changes that it would weaken the structure.

[tekkyy]

so we’ll reduce the Anti-air values by 1

what about making naval anti-air not preemptive?
like “double KO” kind of engagement?

are there difference between WWII land and naval antiaircraft guns?

and its not a “draft” anymore, its a “release” or “release candidate”  :-)

[Imperious Leader]

right no preemptive on that.

“draft” was a slip. sorry.

make it so.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

“draft” was a slip. sorry.

lol I am just saying it for fun
well, its good to imply the level of progress with a new term over “draft”

by the way I notice you capitalise your “WE” often
I used to think you were really putting emphasis
but now it seems quite common  :wink: so you probably don’t mean it

[Imperious Leader]

oh…that “we” thing:

the W and E are close… and when i hit the cap function i usually hold it to cover the E as well.

Thus the We is coming out WE.

[tekkyy]

CURRENTLY:

SS (Submarine) 8IPC Move2 Attack2 Defense2 = 33%

before ASW tech
DD (Destroyer) 10IPC Move3 Search3 Attack2 = 17%

after ASW tech
DD (Destroyer) Search4 Attack3 = 33%
Air Search3 Attack2 = 17%

Without ASW tech submarines are very powerful.
UK starts with 1 of 3 progress boxes.
UK can put 2 develop weapons rolls on ASW per turn. (1 free + 1 purchasable.)
Thats 6 turns on average.

IDEA1:

before ASW tech
DD (Destroyer) Search3 Attack3 = 25%

Destroyer slightly improved. Now its 8IPC 33% vs. 10IPC 25%. Submarine’s edge is still perserved.

IDEA2:

before ASW tech
Air Search0 Attack2

Air units still may not attack submarines on their own until ASW tech.
Before ASW tech (bouy, seach lights) planes can still bomb submarines right?

[Imperious Leader]

I think Idea 1 is better. Subs should not be able to attacks subs until ASW is achieved. Until then they can only scout.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

Subs should not be able to attacks subs until ASW is achieved.

Subs have no ASW search nor ASW attack value currently.
I am guessing you meant to say “air units should not be able to attacks subs until ASW is achieved”.

Until then they can only scout.

Actually air units cannot perform ASW at all currently, until ASW tech.
But fair enough considering Leigh Light was from June 1942, which is pretty much straight after the game start.

If I extropolate from existing system of….
*air unit ASW weaker then destroyer ASW
*BMR cannot hit naval units
*ASW tech gives +1 to both search and attack rolls

then the system would be…

before ASW tech
DD Search3 Attack2 17% -> Search3 Attack3 25%
Air Search0 Attack0 -> Search2 Attack0
BMR Search0 Attack0

after ASW tech
DD Search4 Attack3 33% -> Search4 Attack4 44%
Air Search3 Attack2 17% ->Search3 Attack3 25%
BMR Search0 Attack0

before SS tech
SS Attack2 33%

after SS tech
SS Attack3 50%

[Imperious Leader]

air units should not be able to attacks subs until ASW is achieved

yes thats what i meant.

also, you call the shot on what to do and make the changes necessary.

Until you get ASW only bombers can scout

after ASW fighters can also scout and fight subs.

Bombers cant fight subs

before ASW dd and cruisers can search for subs

after ASW they can fight them with +1 attack and search

after SS tech they fight at +1 and negate any modifiers for ASW for any fighter or warship

[tekkyy]

ok I would adjust it to…

before ASW tech
DD/CA search 3 attack 3
BMR search 2

after ASW tech
DD/CA search 4 attack 4
FTR/NAV search 3 attack 3
BMR search 3

before SS tech
SS attack 2

after SS tech
SS attack +1, ASW search -1 attack -1

[Imperious Leader]

ok great make it so.

[tekkyy]

now for the naval combat simplification…

*as mentioned I wanted to make it you always dogfight if both side has planes, so no more CAP.
For air units allocation you now only choose between 2 things (normal combat and ASW) rather than 3 (those +CAP)

*let Anti-Air work against all enemy air units (because making CAP air units immune to enemy AA fire is only realistic is naval engagements were mostly standing-off assaults)

*last simplification, wonder if damaged Battleships could fire in opening-fire too…could say

existing summary

Pre-Combat
1. ASW search rolls (1st cycle only).
2. Air units are allocated to naval attack, CAP, or ASW.
Opening-fire
1. Undetected Submarines fire, selectively (1st cycle only).
2. Other naval units perform Anti-Air against naval attack air units.
3. Remove casualties.
Mid-Combat
1. Undamged battleship fires. Remove casualties.
2. Naval units are allocated to normal combat or ASW.
Main Round
1. Detected Submarines fire.
2. ASW naval and air perform ASW attack against Submarines.
3. Other naval units fire.
4. Naval attack and CAP air units fire.
5. Remove casualties.
Retreat Decision
1. Defender
2. Attacker

new summary

Pre-Combat
1. ASW search (1st cycle only).
Opening-fire
1. Undetected Submarines fire, selectively (1st cycle only).
2. Naval units perform Anti-Air.
3. Remove casualties.
Mid-Combat
1. Battleship fires. Remove casualties.
2. Units are allocated to normal combat or ASW attack.
Main Round
1. Detected Submarines fire.
2. ASW attack.
3. Other naval units fire.
4. Other air units fire.
5. Remove casualties.
Retreat Decision
1. Defender
2. Attacker

[Imperious Leader]

ok at least its streamlined.

Since battleships can be targeted or hit by other battleships first. I guess it would be alright to allow their preemptive shot to stay even if damaged. ill go with that.

[tekkyy]

hehe you forgot again
we already got rid of the class system

hits don’t have to be allocated according to class

but, hits are allocated on damaged units

so is it still ok for damaged battleships to fire preemptively?

[Imperious Leader]

yes it is.

[Bierwagen]

I could use a little clarification on the wolf packs.  Do submarines get the Wolf Pack bonus if there is only 1 or does this bonus require a minimum of 2 subs in the zone?

It seems to be a very powerful advantage.  Maybe too powerful.  With Super Subs tech they become as powerful as BB.

In my first attempt at Naval Combat yesterday, an undetected SS selectively hit (with Wolf Pack bonus) my BB causing it to be damaged and list.  I hadn’t read this forum yet so was operating on “damaged BB don’t get to fire in Mid-Combat”, so the enemy BB sunk my BB using “Whenever possible hits are allocated on damaged units first.”.

So I lost a BB without ever firing a shot which was rather painful.

I was a little dumbstruck, and couldn’t come up with a viable defense against marauding “Wolf Packs”.

Any insights or thoughts appreciated.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

You need two subs to get the bonus bringing the attack at 3.

You need to buy ASW units to protect the BB or its a gonner

You need to develop ASW tech and all related techs, so subs can be hunted down by planes and the search roll to locate goes up.

When you have nothing and no defense the Germans have what they called the “happy time” of the kreigmarine. The rules are
deliberately written where everything becomes a defense, counter defense , counter counter defense, etc…

So don’t let your BB float alone in the water w/o destroyer escort. Everytime they build a sub you need to worry about making a destroyer… this is the give and go of the possible German strategy that they can develop… which will deny UK from building transports because they have not established a proper navy by allocating purchases to land units. UK is a naval power and to defeat the U-boats you need lots of ASW.