@Caesar:
I’d rather do the dog fight rule, it makes a lot more sense.
Yes that’s what I meant by combat.
AARHE: Phase 2: Units
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yes right NCM as well.
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now, we go back to my earlier post (3 posts above this post) about values of naval fighters and divebombers
need a table a normal and dogfighting values for fighter, bomber, jet figher, jet bomber, naval fighter, divebomber…
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Question,
are you going to allow all types of units to be built everywhere or are you going to limit the type(s) of units to the areas that could actually handle such a build. example: on a quick responce to the attack on pearl by the Japaneses, the Americans can build battleships there that next turn, but after that no longer. pearl was no major dock for large scale battleship production. would also like to know if you go to build battleships and aircraft carriers, do you get to us them the next turn or will it take longer to build? -
I have these ideas on some of my other games… for example BB, CV and CA take 3 turns to build in War in Europe… while armor/air take two turns… everything else is 1 turn ( DD, SS, TR, infantry)
As far as drydock repair…Pugent sound ( in washington) is where most ships were built for the navy and repaired. Allowing Hawaii to repair battleships is acceptable… heck they fixed the yorktown in time for the midway battle… so well just keep things as they were.’
The projects idea is to address major unrealistic unhistorical rules with a broadstroke approach… all these little things fall below the radar… they turn this into some kind of GMT style game where it becomes too micro management.
So the bottom line is these would make the project more realistic… but at the expense of having a fun game.
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are you going to allow all types of units to be built everywhere or are you going to limit the type(s) of units to the areas that could actually handle such a build.
well we do have a mechanism
you can only spend 4 times IPC income of a territory on an ICso Germany is 10 IPC…you can spend 40 IPC there per turn
but Alaska us only 2 IPC…so if you build an IC there…you can only spend 8 IPC there per turn -
so I am looking at these values
normal
fighter 3/4
jet figher same?
bomber 4/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)
jet bomber same?
naval fighter 3/2
divebomber 3/2dogfighting
fighter 2/3
jet figher 4/4
bomber 1/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)
jet bomber same?
naval fighter 2/2
divebomber 1/2 -
so I am looking at these values
normal
fighter 3/4
jet figher 4/6 ( it took more than a few planes to even have odds against this plane… you may even want to allow them double attack per round. look up me-262)
bomber 4/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)
jet bomber 3/3 ( these only carried very small payloads only germany had this plane Arado 234b jet bomber) They should be impossible to shoot down by AA guns. also id give them a targeted attack on an armor unit of their choice… even though the best they did in the war was destroy stationary targets like bridges.
naval fighter 3/2
divebomber 3/2dogfighting
fighter 2/3
jet figher 4/4
bomber 1/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)… this is not a bad idea due to multiple guns…
jet bomber 2/4
naval fighter 2/2
divebomber 1/2this looks very good!
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@Imperious:
jet figher 4/6 ( it took more than a few planes to even have odds against this plane… you may even want to allow them double attack per round. look up me-262)
but remember this value is for normal combat not dogfighting
jet bomber 3/3 ( these only carried very small payloads only germany had this plane Arado 234b jet bomber) They should be impossible to shoot down by AA guns. also id give them a targeted attack on an armor unit of their choice… even though the best they did in the war was destroy stationary targets like bridges.
now you have equal attack and defense value, why not 3/4?
this bomber has small payload, targetted attack, its becoming like a fighter
immunity from AA guns goes for all jet planes…now bomber is 15 IPC why would you buy it instead of the 10 IPC fighter?bomber 1/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)… this is not a bad idea due to multiple guns…
yeah thats what I was thinking
jet bomber 2/4
that would make defending jet bomber dogfight on same odds against attack jet fighter
maybe 2/3?should jet bomber dogfighting better than normal fighter?
jet bomber and heavy bomber
the ideas are sorta conflicting
can you have a heavy jet bomber?
should it get a targetted attack? -
Jet figher 4/6 ( it took more than a few planes to even have odds against this plane… you may even want to allow them double attack per round. look up me-262)
but remember this value is for normal combat not dogfighting
++++ oh right… important idea is the me- 262 was concieved as an interceptor by the design team… then old Hitler wanted it as a fighter bomber because it could not be shot down… the combat values in any case must be superior to fighters if we accept the route that Herr Hitler imposed on the project.
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jet bomber 3/3 ( these only carried very small payloads only germany had this plane Arado 234b jet bomber) They should be impossible to shoot down by AA guns. also id give them a targeted attack on an armor unit of their choice… even though the best they did in the war was destroy stationary targets like bridges.now you have equal attack and defense value, why not 3/4?
+++++ because it had a weak guns for dogfighting… its primary defense value is its blazing speed… it was like 200 MPH faster than any allied plane. It was like trying to dogfight Rodan… (yes that Rodan)
this bomber has small payload, targetted attack, its becoming like a fighter
immunity from AA guns goes for all jet planes…now bomber is 15 IPC why would you buy it instead of the 10 IPC fighter?+++++ on the jet planes the values have to be higher and the price should be increased… but only marginally because after all its a tech that Germany may get long after its clear they are losing… or the icing on the cake for the victory in Washington DC fall 1946… The value to buy these things must be necessary id place the value at 12 IPC… The jet bomber could stay at 15 IPC but that plane does not engage in SBR… it was not a strategic bomber… it was a tactical bomber hence the targeted ability.
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bomber 1/1 (heavy bomber rolls two dice)… this is not a bad idea due to multiple guns…
yeah thats what I was thinkingQuote
jet bomber 2/4
that would make defending jet bomber dogfight on same odds against attack jet fighter
maybe 2/3?++++ ok sure sounds good.
should jet bomber dogfighting better than normal fighter?
+++++ only on defense due largly to its speed.
jet bomber and heavy bomber
the ideas are sorta conflicting
can you have a heavy jet bomber?++++ no thats a long way off… well about 5 years away from a strategic heavy jet bomber… we can add this.
should it get a targetted attack?
No strategic heavy bomber just drops tons of bombs in a confined area… no targeted attack…
This brings up another thing… bombers should not be able to attack naval targets… they can search under ASW but thats it… its impossible for say a lancaster to “bomb” a destroyer or Battleship… because level bombing is done at high altitude at slow speeds and ships are moving too fast. If the planes can lower for a bomb drop all of them would be destroyed by warships AA guns… like shooting giant Rodans moving at 15 knots=== YOU CANT MISS SOMETHING THAT BIG.
Sorry to use the “Rodan” reference so much… i just bought that movie.
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Jet fighter
so we could consider 4/5, I am just a little sensitive at the moment to a 6 value
or we could leave it at 3/4 but firing in both opening and main cycle…
(this is NOT just two rolls…but like what you sugguested…to model its speed you now attack twice…bypassing/skiping dogfighting for main cycle)but then we gotta decide if jets dogfighting each other in main round fire
or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?by the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?
Jet bomber
Bomber 15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships
Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships
Fighter 10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship
Jet Fighter 12 IPC 4/5 (or even 4/6) selective attack, no SBR, attack shipWe still can’t see why you would use Jet bombers, even if we go ahead with “twice attack for jets”.
Normal, Jet, Heavy
So Jet is not an upgrade but new fighter and bomber units?
But heavy bomber remains as an upgrade right?
+++ no thats a long way off… well about 5 years away from a strategic heavy jet bomber… we can add this.
No actually not interested in adding this. We have SO many technologies.
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jet fighter
so we could consider 4/5, I am just a little sensitive at the moment to a 6 value
+++++ ok thats fineor we could leave it at 3/4 but firing in both opening and main cycle…
(this is NOT just two rolls…but like what you sugguested…to model its speed you now attack twice…bypassing/skiping dogfighting for main cycle)but then we gotta decide if jets dogfighting each other in main round fire
or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?
+++ this is not clear…sorryby the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?
+++++ yes, however i never seen any actual encounter with a German Jet and say a glouster meteor jet fighter/bomber
Jet bomber
Bomber 15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships
Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships
Fighter 10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship
Jet Fighter 12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack shipWe still can’t see why you would use Jet bombers, even if we go ahead with “twice attack for jets”.
+++= twice attacks for jet fighters in air to air combat only… not jet bombers against land units for example. those values are good but they are against land targets onlyNormal, Jet, Heavy
So Jet is not an upgrade but new fighter and bomber units?
+++ yes it is an upgrade it and be a upgrade for heavy bombers ( jet hvy bombers)
But heavy bomber remains as an upgrade right?
+++ its an upgrade from a bomber and requires tech success. -
Just a suggestion. During the Second World War jet bombers didn’t exist. The first operational jet fighter, the Messerschmitt Me 262, was produced near the end of the war. They only developed jet bombers at the post-war period.
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@Imperious:
Bomber        15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships
I think all aircraft should be able to attack ships. Depends on what bomber you’re talking about, though. If it’s ground attack/dive bomber or torpedo bomber it should be able to, but for long-range I don’t know. Maybe dividing bombers into four subcategories–four independent units(torpedo bomber, long-range bomber, attack bomber, and jet bomber if you want to add it)?
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Just a suggestion. During the Second World War jet bombers didn’t exist. The first operational jet fighter, the Messerschmitt Me 262, was produced near the end of the war. They only developed jet bombers at the post-war period.
In dec 1944 Germany had its first operational use of its Arado -234B jet bomber
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/ardrar2.htm
I think all aircraft should be able to attack ships. Depends on what bomber you’re talking about, though. If it’s ground attack/dive bomber or torpedo bomber it should be able to, but for long-range I don’t know. Maybe dividing bombers into four subcategories–four independent units(torpedo bomber, long-range bomber, attack bomber, and jet bomber if you want to add it)?
Level bombers were not used for tactical combat operations. IN axis and allies fighters represent the tactical while bombers represent the strategic missions. AS we expand the role of air units and add a few new air units those will take on specific roles against naval ( torpedo) and land (dive bomber) targets.
The current lineup is as follows:
OOB units:
Fighters
bombersAdding new units:
naval torpedo bombers
dive bombersand with sufficient tech we have: ( these are modifications of existing planes)
long range bombers/ fighters : long range aircraft
heavy bombers
jet fighters
jet bombers -
Ok, thanks
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@Imperious:
or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?
+++ this is not clear…sorryBasically I was thinking letting jets attack in both opening and main round fire.
Hence they non-jet planes do not prevent enemy jet planes from attacking friendly land units.
But now I see you mean jets only hit twice for dogfighting.by the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?
+++++ yes, however i never seen any actual encounter with a German Jet and say a glouster meteor jet fighter/bomberthen could it be because it wasn’t possible in WWII?
+++= twice attacks for jet fighters in air to air combat only… not jet bombers against land units for example. those values are good but they are against land targets only
Those values are just summary of current prooposal.
Jet bombers dogfighting worse than jet fighter…so taking that into account Jet Bomber is still bad value compared to Jet Fighter.Bomber 15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter 10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter 12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”. -
Just a little out-of-topic discussion:
Just because it’s heavy doesn’t mean it’s slow. During the Mid Ages heavy infantry or heavy cavalry referred to armor. Much later, armor declined so the word “heavy” was used like “elite.” However some units still used armor (i.e. cuirrasiers) and during WWI the creation of the Mark tank series reintroduced the use of armor (thus the name “armor” for tanks). Anyway heavy doesn’t always mean slow, Battlecruisers had the firepower of battleships but had the displacement, speed, and armor of cruisers (heavy cruisers actually, but these were fast too). Anyway… back to the topic: Jet bombers can be fast little buggers while having a huge amount of payload.
***I think jet bombers should be 16 IPC 2/3 selective attack, SBR at half-strength, attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
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I think jet bombers should be 16 IPC 2/3 selective attack, SBR at half-strength, attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
++++ at that price jet bombers would be worthless for 16 IPC. Id rather buy a fighter. -
or should planes even bomb in main round fire…which is when your troops advance…friendly fire?
+++ this is not clear…sorryBasically I was thinking letting jets attack in both opening and main round fire.
Hence they non-jet planes do not prevent enemy jet planes from attacking friendly land units.
But now I see you mean jets only hit twice for dogfighting.OOOO yes a great idea… jets cannot be intercepted so they can attack targets and then also in air combat. My idea on the twice attack was the fact that Me-262 was able to take out multiple planes with its speed. it was the tiger tank of the sky.
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by the way, could WWII jet fighters dogfighting each other?
+++++ yes, however i never seen any actual encounter with a German Jet and say a glouster meteor jet fighter/bomberthen could it be because it wasn’t possible in WWII?
OOOOO no its because the quantities of these planes were so scarce that they never saw each other and because they had different roles in the war.
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+++= twice attacks for jet fighters in air to air combat only… not jet bombers against land units for example. those values are good but they are against land targets onlyThose values are just summary of current prooposal.
Jet bombers dogfighting worse than jet fighter…so taking that into account Jet Bomber is still bad value compared to Jet Fighter.Bomber        15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber     15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter        10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter      12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.
also about 3 years later americans had that heavy jet bomber aka the flying wing.
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@Imperious:
OOOO yes a great idea… jets cannot be intercepted so they can attack targets and then also in air combat.
Ok so we’ll let jets bypass dogfighting with non-jets.
If only one side has jets, those jets can choose to preemptively and selectively attack ground targets (as if that side had air superiority).And then we could apply the “armor hits on armor/artillery” rule to dogfighting!
“In dogfighting, hits by jets must be allocated on jets before non-jets.”Bomber        15 IPC 4/1 no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 1/1
Jet Bomber     15 IPC 3/3 selective attack, no SBR, attack ships, dogfight at 2/3
Fighter        10 IPC 3/4 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 2/3
Jet Fighter      12 IPC 4/5 selective attack, no SBR, attack ship, dogfight at 4/4So the problem remains. When you achieve Jet Technology, you would upgarde your fighters but you wouldn’t upgrade your bombers…
We may need to leave the Jet Bomber as a bomber rather than fighter-like units.
So it would be like…Jet Bomber 15 IPC 3/3, no selective, SBR, can’t attack ships, dogfight at 2/2
I mean you want Jet to be an upgrade not a new unit. It would be weird then you achieve “Jet” technology you suddenly lose ability to SBR :-P
Except for that Bomber can become Heavy Bomber…so Jet Bomber can become Heavy Jet Bomber…
Surprised to see you want Heavy Jet Bomber…since it conflicts with an “agile” and fighter-like “Jet Bomber”.
+++ it should be at least possible if the game is extended in late 1945 american “shooting star” jet fighter shows up.Ok how do we actually model that?
Separate into different techologies…“Heavy bomber”, “Jet bomber”, and “Heavy jet bomber” ?
“Jet” then becomes “Jet fighter”.This is complicated.
But remember we don’t want use fixed dates, unless there is a very good reason for it. Remember we want historical simulation not historical replay.
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