We talked about INF and ARM I want to know what players think about ART. Was it worth adding to the game?
I never used them at first I was stuck in my classic mindset. Now that I have doen the math to find out that 35 IPC’s of INF/ART split will take out 35 IPC’s of ARM I think I’m hooked.
Another thing I think needs to be said about ART is that it should always be on the front lines. Take Germany as an example never put ART into W Europe unless your taking it back. This unit makes its money as an offensive unit.
What say you?
LT
@LT04:
I never used them at first I was stuck in my classic mindset. Now that I have doen the math to find out that 35 IPC’s of INF/ART split will take out 35 IPC’s of ARM I think I’m hooked.
Well, you can’t just look at inf/art being more cost-effective than tanks alone because tanks also rely on infantry as fodder. But having 1 artillery per ~3+ infantry is certainly good IMO.
For 40 IPC worth of units attacking 11 inf:
7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks (1 IPC leftover) - win 50%, avg. loss of 31 IPC
5 inf, 5 tanks - win 46%, avg. loss of 32 IPC
8 inf, 3 tanks (1 IPC leftover) - win 40%, avg. loss of 32.5 IPC
8 inf, 4 art - win 57.5%, avg. loss of 30 IPC
6 inf, 3 art, 2 tanks - win 57%, avg. loss of 30 IPC
For 40 IPC worth of units defending against 5 inf, 1 art, 5 tanks:
7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks (1 IPC leftover) - win 43%, avg. loss of 32 IPC
5 inf, 5 tanks - win 40%, avg. loss of 33.5 IPC
8 inf, 3 tanks (1 IPC leftover) - win 50%, avg. loss of 31 IPC
8 inf, 4 art - win 47%, avg. loss of 32 IPC
6 inf, 3 art, 2 tanks - win 43%, avg. loss of 33 IPC
More in-depth than just 35 IPC of inf/art vs. tanks. But that’s still too much of a vacuum. It doesn’t take tank movement advantage into account. Nor successive battles (such as losing all your inf in an 8 inf, 4 art attack and having 4 art with no inf to support). In a single battle with infantry to support and use as fodder, artillery are certainly better for the cost than tanks in attack, until you get to a certain amount of inf/art without tanks, which is beginning to show with 8inf/4art being about equal to 6inf/3art/2tanks. Comparing 8 inf, 3 tanks vs. 8 inf, 4 art shows that, given fodder, tanks are better defending than art for the cost. So a mix with heavy builds of infantry is still the best.
I base every thing on a one space advance. An army can only move as fast as its fodder.
LT
Artillery is the King of the Battlefield :lol:
I mainly use artillery as Russia.
I build one AA first round, by R2 I swap the 3 frontline territories and place one AA gun in each of them.
I try to build at least 3 artillery per turn and swap using thoses.
I call that ''The Iron Curtain". It rarely failed me since i rarely saw a German player risk his fighters each turn to swap thoses territories in such conditions. It forces the german to commit tanks most of time at first and building artillery too thereafter. Which is normally not included in his gameplan.
I give myself an option to bring Uk troops trough Norway to help russians maintain karelia if i feel Russians are commiting too much troops while i’m building up allies forces.
I’m not saying it’s fool proof but it sure does beep germany by denying them easy swapping and changing their production plans.
Artillery is the key here.
:-)
I have been expounding this very thing in a previous thread. Of course the purchase of a tank in every build is reasonable and useful, the majority of your IPC should go to a 2/3 Infantry and 1/3 Artillery. Some Allies will need to invest in ships and air units of course, but when it comes to ground units this is still a good buy policy. I don’t always adhere to it myself I confess, but it is still a good economic strategy. :wink:
Some would debate a 1 INF : 1 ART ratio should be maintained but I say nay I agree with you Ivan 2 INF : 1 ART is better. You need to plan for you fodder units.
So in reality the ratio is like this 1 fodder INF : 1 INF : 1 ART + plus what ever attacking units you can muster. (That’s right I said muster. :lol:)
LT
I generally like to build mostly infantry and artillery with Germany and then, once I start pushing out, I switch to tanks and infantry. That’s because tanks can race up to the front to support the infantry and artillery. It’s harder to move artillery from Germany into the front since they cannot skip over open terrain like tanks.
And yes, I feel artillery can be a strong asset, especially for Germany but also for England and America.
Artillery is a very useful unit. They are great for a defensive Russia; after building enough stacks of infantry and some artillery, you can wait for German to reach the front before collapsing on them. With Germany I alternate builds between inf/art and inf/arm. Every 2 rounds I have a pretty powerful attack force against Russia. UK and US I really only build artillery if I don’t have a dollar to spare to buy a tank.
I don’t know as I would ever think to use ART how you are saying. ART is an offensive unit. It has the same defence as INF so why spend the extra IPC to have a glorified buffer unit?
ART pays for it self when its on the advance escorting INF. When you employ it as a defensive unit you are making an econimic pit fall for your self.
LT
I believe that Russia building Artillery should be a break out maneuver. If you have the units in Caucasus or Russia and the Axis are not very strong, a one round build of 6-8 Artillery (assuming you have the cash on hand to afford that many) can significantly increase your offensive punch while not overly effecting your unit count. (Sure, 6 artillery is the same cost as 8 infantry, but it’s only two units you are short. Meanwhile, assuming you have a large stack of infantry; and you do, don’t you?; it’s increasing your attack punch by 3 for each Artillery) may convince the axis to back off instead of pressuring your further.
Honestly, however, I see it more often used in Germany. Germany gets a bad defense in W. Europe, the allies throw units in, Germany fails to liberate it, and next round they have a stack of infantry and fighters, but buy artillery. That way they don’t have to pull back tanks just to kick the allies off W. Europe.
Just a scenario I thought of. I’m sure there are plenty other similar scenarios you can think of.
@LT04:
I don’t know as I would ever think to use ART how you are saying. ART is an offensive unit. It has the same defence as INF so why spend the extra IPC to have a glorified buffer unit?
ART pays for it self when its on the advance escorting INF. When you employ it as a defensive unit you are making an econimic pit fall for your self.
LT
I agree 100% with you LT. Jen, I also agree with you that art should be used as a “breakout manuver”. Especially as Russia when I use art I usually hold it back a round or two to make sure I have plenty of inf to protect the art and arm with. Then, about R3 or so I start taking some territory with it. Even though its not a very costly offensive unit, I still want to protect it as much as possible. Russia especially doesn’t have enough resources to waste even 1 IPC. Just in my opinion. Thanks.
