This pledge of allegiance thing…

[stuka pilot]

@cystic:

Just curious . . .
should we be banning the taking of God’s name in vain? I think this would be a good idea:

1. this practice tends to offend Christians (and God)
2. this practice is obviously offensive to atheists (or at least Christians bothered by the use of the term “under God” in the pledge of allegiance).
   :P

Yes. Let’s ban blasphemy. lol

[Janus1]

i say God more than many theists, im not bothered by the term at all. i dont care what you believe in, i just dont. and i use the term, cuz thats how i roll. im also quite drunk right now.

[Guest]

@BlackWatch:

…In 1933 Hitler and company ran around breaking glass and burning books in Munich - just a bit of tomfoolery by those in charge, right??. But there was nobody there to tell them no, so by 11 short years later they believed they could get away with the murder of over 6 million people as part of legitimate state policy.

I hope the 1933 is just a typo, Hitler’s Munich times were 1923. There were people there to tell them “no”, but they lost because there were more who thought these no-sayers were only “panicking leftist” or even worse, “communists”. The genocide on the Jews has more than one date to link it to: In “Mein Kampf” from 1924 you find Hitler’s hatred on Jews, the persecution begins straight from 1933 with boycotts, the Nürnberg laws of 1935 are an “important” step, so is the progrome night of 1938, and from 1941 on the systematic genocide on an industrialised level.

For Janus: the term “Kristallnacht” was used by the Nazis and is a very bad euphemism as it was not only glass that was breaking that night. Progrome is the better word to describe that night (which was not in 1933, but 1938).

[Jennifer]

Although I wouldn’t have brought up all those instances to support the quashing of this gentleman’s arguement in court, I have not yet seen a proper response showing how they are unrelated, myself. But I’m going to try and keep an open mind about this, mainly because I find it difficult to compare Crystal-Night (sorry, I don’t want to screw up the spelling, so I translated to English - no offense intended or meant) to “Under God” in our pledge of alleigance.

CC: Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. I, personally, do not know of another 1st world nation that has a pledge of alliegance. What’s even more ridiculous is that this pledge isn’t manadatory thus making it completely extranious in the daily course of events.

What’s even worse is you are pledging your alliegance to a piece of cloth that represents a nation that resides under a supreme being. You are not pledging alliegance to God nor to your country but to a piece of stinking colored fabric that has to be torn down every now and again and replaced because it rips, tears or gets soiled!

Stuka: I agree in part. If we were in the Reagan years or Bush Sr. then I’d be more willing to hear this man’s case. However, and this is unconfirmed as of yet, if this is the same moron trying to protect his daughter from the pledge because he’s an athiest but she’s a christian, I’d think he deserves some hefty fines for wasting the people’s money - especially since he has no custodial power over the child. Not to mention, this case was already tried and refused to be heard by the Supreme Court.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

… Crystal-Night (sorry, I don’t want to screw up the spelling, so I translated to English - no offense intended or meant)

I am irritated. The correct german spelling appears twice before your post.
Why not use it … yet stick to the meaning, even though it was mentioned once before that the term is a Nazi term.
They didn’t dare to call it “More than 100 Jews beaten to death by hordes of cowardous SA men”-night , so please don’t call it Kristallnacht or any translation of it. It was a progrome, it should be called as such.

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

… Crystal-Night (sorry, I don’t want to screw up the spelling, so I translated to English - no offense intended or meant)

I am irritated. The correct german spelling appears twice before your post.
Why not use it … yet stick to the meaning, even though it was mentioned once before that the term is a Nazi term.
They didn’t dare to call it “More than 100 Jews beaten to death by hordes of cowardous SA men”-night , so please don’t call it Kristallnacht or any translation of it. It was a progrome, it should be called as such.

Because “Kristallnacht” is the official term listed in the history books in public record. While we all realize it was just more evidence of the National Socialists (NAZIs) establishing power and hurting/murdering others, doesn’t negate the name associated with the night in question. After all, if we said “That night when the nazi’s killed hundreds of jews” then we could have the night in question confused with thousands of other nights when the nazi’s killed hundreds of jews. But when we use “Kristallnacht” everyone knows, without question, what night we speak of.

Besides, I can’t find a definition for progrome. Is that spelled right? Is that a native word (ie German?) Better yet, could you post a definition for us so we don’t have misunderstandings over syntax?

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Because “Kristallnacht” is the official term listed in the history books in public record.

So, if i find an official german book that says something about anything in US history, then that gives me the right to use that term… even if the whole of the US agrees that it is an “evil” and relativistic term?

Besides, I can’t find a definition for progrome. Is that spelled right? Is that a native word (ie German?) Better yet, could you post a definition for us so we don’t have misunderstandings over syntax?

Pogrom. My bad, a spelling mistake.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pogrom&searchmode=none

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pogrom

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

Because “Kristallnacht” is the official term listed in the history books in public record.

So, if i find an official german book that says something about anything in US history, then that gives me the right to use that term… even if the whole of the US agrees that it is an “evil” and relativistic term?

No, because it is not only US History books that use this term to refer to that specific night.

And thanks for the links.

[Mary]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

Because “Kristallnacht” is the official term listed in the history books in public record.

So, if i find an official german book that says something about anything in US history, then that gives me the right to use that term… even if the whole of the US agrees that it is an “evil” and relativistic term?

Besides, I can’t find a definition for progrome. Is that spelled right? Is that a native word (ie German?) Better yet, could you post a definition for us so we don’t have misunderstandings over syntax?

Pogrom. My bad, a spelling mistake.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pogrom&searchmode=none

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pogrom

There are all sorts of euphemisms in American history. The Trail of Tears should probably be called “When we force-marched thousands of Native Americans to their death”. Have to agree with Jen on this one.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

@F_alk:

So, if i find an official german book that says something about anything in US history, then that gives me the right to use that term… even if the whole of the US agrees that it is an “evil” and relativistic term?

No, because it is not only US History books that use this term to refer to that specific night.

Honestly: Have you ever seen a history book that is not from the US, or is this just an inspired guess?

Would you concede that GWB is an idiot, just because the world thinks so? Wasn’t it you to complain that the rest of the world doesn’t matter … why should i then give it any right to put a label on something? Especially, when obviously the world does not know where the word stems from. That’s where the “Trail of Tears” analogy fails, that label is a translation from Cherokee “Nunna daul Tsuny”. So using “trail of tears” is an argument FOR using the Jiddish Pogrom and not the Nazi Kristallnacht as a label.

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

@F_alk:

So, if i find an official german book that says something about anything in US history, then that gives me the right to use that term… even if the whole of the US agrees that it is an “evil” and relativistic term?

No, because it is not only US History books that use this term to refer to that specific night.

Honestly: Have you ever seen a history book that is not from the US, or is this just an inspired guess?

Would you concede that GWB is an idiot, just because the world thinks so? Wasn’t it you to complain that the rest of the world doesn’t matter … why should i then give it any right to put a label on something? Especially, when obviously the world does not know where the word stems from. That’s where the “Trail of Tears” analogy fails, that label is a translation from Cherokee “Nunna daul Tsuny”. So using “trail of tears” is an argument FOR using the Jiddish Pogrom and not the Nazi Kristallnacht as a label.

Yea, it’s written into other European history books as kristollnacht as well as in the Russian texts. Changing it would have to be done by a general consensus of historians and even then might fail because everyone knows it by its German name, not its Jewish name.

[Rune Blade]

I have no problem with children in schools being socialised to say the Pledge of Allegiance - I object vehemently to “under God” being included in the pledge

Why? This nation was founded by people who believed in God. Under God was instituted by Eisenhower to differentiate what our country stands for when we had the cold war with the aethiest Soviet Union. I think Under God works just fine. If this offends your sensitivities. Just don’t say it. Easy enough. Too bad some dummy always wants to get his 15 min. of fame by going to the courts. God help us all if we become a nation run by the courts. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

[Mary]

@Rune:

I have no problem with children in schools being socialised to say the Pledge of Allegiance - I object vehemently to “under God” being included in the pledge

Why? This nation was founded by people who believed in God. Under God was instituted by Eisenhower to differentiate what our country stands for when we had the cold war with the aethiest Soviet Union. I think Under God works just fine. If this offends your sensitivities. Just don’t say it. Easy enough. Too bad some dummy always wants to get his 15 min. of fame by going to the courts. God help us all if we become a nation run by the courts. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

It’s not so easy to “just don’t say it”. I’ve seen Jehova Witness kids ridiculed for not saying the pledge. Anytime you go against the majority, you set yourself up for ridicule, esp. among children. There is no reason to compell kids to say “Under God”. You’re pledging allegienace to America, not Jehova’s America.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Yea, it’s written into other European history books as kristollnacht as well as in the Russian texts.

Which countries apart from Russia ?

Changing it would have to be done by a general consensus of historians and even then might fail because everyone knows it by its German name, not its Jewish name.

Well, you now know both names. You can now decide which name to use: the name of the Nazis and murderers or the name Jews and victims.
You choice …
and the historians have made up their mind AFAIK, it is just that the inhabitants of some nations seem not to listen to what a majority of the rest of the world says.

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

Yea, it’s written into other European history books as kristollnacht as well as in the Russian texts.

Which countries apart from Russia ?

Changing it would have to be done by a general consensus of historians and even then might fail because everyone knows it by its German name, not its Jewish name.

Well, you now know both names. You can now decide which name to use: the name of the Nazis and murderers or the name Jews and victims.
You choice …
and the historians have made up their mind AFAIK, it is just that the inhabitants of some nations seem not to listen to what a majority of the rest of the world says.

Your second statement could describe Germany as well as any other country, thus it is a bad statement, for your arguement.

Personally, I’ve always known it as Krystollnacht (or however it’s spelled) so I’ll refer to it by that name. At least I’ll know everyone I speak to knows what I am referring too, hardly anyone I’d actually talk to would know it by Progrome.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

Krystollnacht (or however it’s spelled)…

As the spelling is correct here in this thread, and you were able to spell it correctly …. well …

Hooh Hah :).

[Rune Blade]

It’s not so easy to “just don’t say it”. I’ve seen Jehova Witness kids ridiculed for not saying the pledge. Anytime you go against the majority, you set yourself up for ridicule, esp. among children. There is no reason to compell kids to say “Under God”. You’re pledging allegienace to America, not Jehova’s America.

Again, no one is forced to say the pledge. If you’re upset about kids like the Jahova Witnesses getting ridiculed, guess what, kids pick on other kids. That’s life. Life is not fair. The pledge has nothing to do with this. I respect those kids who say the pledge because they believe in it. YOu know, we do live in America. Saying the pledge should be seen as taking pride in your nation.

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

[Mary]

@Rune:

It’s not so easy to “just don’t say it”. I’ve seen Jehova Witness kids ridiculed for not saying the pledge. Anytime you go against the majority, you set yourself up for ridicule, esp. among children. There is no reason to compell kids to say “Under God”. You’re pledging allegienace to America, not Jehova’s America.

Again, no one is forced to say the pledge. If you’re upset about kids like the Jahova Witnesses getting ridiculed, guess what, kids pick on other kids. That’s life. Life is not fair. The pledge has nothing to do with this. I respect those kids who say the pledge because they believe in it. YOu know, we do live in America. Saying the pledge should be seen as taking pride in your nation.

Rune Blade
“The Master of Debate”

Kids pick on other kids? That’s life? Truly, you are a master debater. Do you not realize I’ve been a teacher for seven years? I’ve SEEN kids picked on for not saying the pledge. Do you know what the kids invariably say? “If I say it, I’ll get in trouble (or go to hell- I’ve gotten that repsonse several times), but if I don’t, the kids make fun of me.”

Go teach for five years, then I’ll repect what you have to say about life and kids bullying each other. Till then, STFU. There is no downside to removing “under God”. There is an upside. Remove it.

[Linkon]

The downside is that other nations who also view themselves as “under God” will be less willing to form coalitions with us against repressively evil dictators and/or commie regimes.

There may even be many God fearing governments around the world who would use our dropping “under God” as a reason to form active economic/military coalitions against the USA.

[cystic crypt]

Linkon - name ONE nation that you are concerned about.