I include these 3 posts for completness but you should read first the comment below.
@Baron:
@Baron:
Many discuss the historical plausibility of TT Def@1 or not. And the nature of 1 unit.
I think their is in either way acceptable rationalization. The main focus should be on game mechanism and rules if we want to find out a better rules with TT with the less drawback.
Der Kunstler option, is like making wishfull thinking when he hopes than in a tactical calculation (and trying to survive against an overwhelming attackers) someone would prefer to loose a Fg@4 at 10 IPCs before loosing 10 IPCs TTs@1 just to not recreat transport screening battle. Impossible.
Example: 1CV 2Fgs 1DDs and 6TTs vs 7 Subs
In this case, even the DD (8 IPCs) will be preserve to let the Fgs destroying Subs.
In the Taken last, it take only 3 hits from the Subs to destroy all the defender’s fleet.
With DK’s, it requires 9 hits and 6 will be defending @1!
First TTs will be sink, then either DD or CV depending on the number of surviving Subs.
With this example, do you see that the transport screening still effective and the impact on naval battle and (the impact on Germany, not worth the mention).
That’s why other option for “Defender choose casualities” must be find out and promote.
Even my last post solution, isn’t that good but has some advantages.
The defender will probably still use TTs has screen.
However, the subs won’t be attacked by numerous @1 defense unless the attacker decide to sink first DD and CV, then the 6 TT@1 will be against the surviving Subs.
But, I think the best tactical option will be to keep DDs because of the 2Fg@4 and soak hits with TTs then CV.
In the 2 TTs for 1@1 and 1 hit, you see that there is only 3 hits to soak by TTs and it is much less unbalancing against Subs (and nearer the TTn0 version of Taken last.)
I’m still thinking under the assumption that we are making adjustment to the actual game, not creating a new one like changing placement of starting units for an other historical period (ex.:1939). Because, in this case, DK’s option is viable for the lover of Classics.
For me, I want the best of both world:
No Warships always protect TTs neither It is almost always preferable to screen my Warships with TTs.
I will always prefer a defender choose casualities over the Taken last rule.
But the game was balance under this last rule and must still be taken in account.
@Baron:
Do you disagree with the principles: defender chooses casualities or, more generally, each player picks is own casualities?
The Transport are taken last rule broke this principle.
I think that is the consequence of the first principle in the Naval battles with TT that most people hate.
For my part, I don’t like either that Warships always protect transport. Historically, I’m sure that on some occasions some TTs were destroyed first. For instance, if the battle of Leyte gulf was made according to Japanese, they would have lured warships away and destroy TTs before retreating. They would have keep their warships for later battles. The plan was to gain time and destroying invasive capacity of the attacker. For them, it was the best way to delay USA.
To keep the core principles of A&A system, we need to find incentive in which defender will find a bit foolish to pick TT before warships. So anybody can hit first TTs then warships but doesn’t see great tactical advantage in it.
You already get into it when you suggested: need 2 TTs to get 1 unit able to @1 and take 1 hit.
Now I have another incentive:
When TT are mixed with warships they don’t get any @1.
It is only when their is no more warship with them that each unit can get 1@1 on defense.
But in any situation a TT worth 1 casualities.
So in a this way any defender will lose some chances to make more hit by picking them first over warships.
Example: 2DDs and 6TTs are attacked.
The defender has the choice to soak up to six hits to keep the defense of 2DDs@2.
Or after 2 hits, can now got 6TTs def@1 and 6 hits.
You see now that it can simulate the warships screening even under the defender choose casualities.
Of course, we can combine with your idea to get it tacticaly less interresting:
1 TT is @0 and Auto-kill. 2TTs is 1@1 and worth 1 hit. But when in any warships group they loose the @1.
However, defender can still decide to loose first TTs then loose warships.
And, according to my addition, if defender has only 3TTs amongst warship and prefer to pick TTs as casuality, he must destroy all the three TTs in 1 shot (a 21 IPCs hit for the attacker!) It hurts just to soak 1 hit!
But it is still defender’s choice.
Example: 2DDs and 6TTs are attacked.
The defender has the choice to soak up to 3 hits to keep the defense of 2DDs@2 but every hit cost him 14 IPCs vs 8 IPCs for 1 DDs.
Or after 2 hits, can still have 6TTs for 3def@1 and 3 hits.
All in all, the real ennemy of Defenseless TT his :
very rare and naval battles (the few of them there were) were mostly transport fodder trade offs.
Under the defender choose his casualities, these are rules in which I create the most incentive to keep transport as last casualities without using an automatic obligation rule like “TT are taken last”.
I also try to apply only actual game mechanics develop for different units to create this specific mechanic for TTs.
Subs as special ability, TTs have similar ones.
First, TT are not warship and are less armored and slower than any units able to combat in a sea-zone,
1 single hit from a combat unit destroy 2 transport units. This imply that to soak 1 hit, you must have 2 TTs.
If 1 TT is choose as casuality and there is also a combat unit present, then you must also destroy this combat unit.
2- All TTs defend @1 against any unit, but they cannot defend (@1) as long as their is 1 warship unit defending them in the sea-zone.
3- When TTs are directly attack by any combat unit, this attack is a treated as a First strike, it is preemptive so if a hit is score, 2 TTs are sunk and unable to use their defense @1.
4- TTs can escape (but it is not mandatory), like a submerge ability, by “Scattering” in the same sea-zone.
It is possible under 3 conditions:
a) there is no combat unit able to defend them (like only subs against TTs and Fgs)
b) they endure at least 1 round of ennemy’s direct fire on them.
c) there is no aircraft still attacking TTs, aircraft blocks TTs escape (like DDs blocking submerge for Subs).
Well, that’s it. Defender can still now decides to pick transports as first casualities.
But, if their is only one TT, it is a tactical mistake, because loosing 1 TT and 1 combat unit instead of only 1 combat unit, the choice is obvious.
If their is 2 or more TTs, it can be interesting to pick two TTs (but the cost is higher: 2 TTsx7= 14 IPCs) to prevent one warship with higher defense to sink. But it also means that he loose 2 Def@1.
And last, because of the escape possibility, he must evaluate where are is better chance of survival: for the warships or his group of transports submiting to only one round of fire from the surviving attacker’s unit ?
Do you see now, there is much more tactical decision to make for the defender (TT are cannon fodder or they should be preserve at all cost by combat units),
there is no more rules like automatic destruction of defenseless transport and “Taken last rules”.
Example: 7 subs against 1DD 2Fg 1CV 6 TTs.
Under Taken last, it requires 3 hits from sub to destroy the entire fleet.
Now it can take 3 hit soaked by (3 pairs of) TTs + 3 hits to destroy the entire fleet.
It can also be 3 hits, then giving 6 TTs 6@1(or less depending on the how many subs got a hit) against surviving Subs then possible escape.
In the special case, when more hits are taken than warships can take, then the surviving TTs are allowed to fire back, counting it as in the same round.
It is a balance and half-way solution between the Classic, which give to much units for the defender to serve as cannon fodder and change the balance between units (specialy against subs) and the New TT rule which imply automatic and boring destruction of many TTs even if there is only one attacking survivor to destroy them all.
I hope you will take the time to think about it…
Here is another option for Classic inspired TT with the defender choose casualities.
However, the TT rule I propose is a nearer OOB G40, and is far less a combat unit than the classic 1TT= 1 unit, Def 1@1.
It follows the same way of thinking in this earlier posts, and all is about incentive to keep transports behind the line of fire instead of using them as cannon fodder but never mandatory.
This new proposition also try to represent :
the limited firepower of any single transport, and group of transports,
the overwhelming firepower of combat unit against TT,
but that any combat unit are not invulnerable.
General rule for TT defense :
Each single TT= Def1@1 vs any unit.
But whenever 1 TT is under attack by any single combat unit, this attack is an automatic hit.
1 TT is sunk for every unit attacking.
Exception: When there is only TTs left, 2 TTs are sunk for every StrB or BB attacking transport.
But all groups of TTs only can still defend and have each single TT=1@1.
Rule for a mix group of TTs and warships: Warships usually protect transport.
When defender decides it is the case and still have some warships/combat units, **no TT can be taken as casuality, but you cannot fire 1TT1@1 with any of them. (Consider them far behind the fire line.)
When defender decides to put them at risk, TT are considered in the front-line so they can fire 1TT1@1, but they are automatically killed.
It is on a 1 on 1 basis, i.e. 1 combat unit sink 1 TT.
If any TT survive because their number was greater than attacker’s unit number,
then they must stay on the line of fire next round, (and will be destroyed unless the attacker was already anhilated at the end of the last round).
There is a maximum hit taken by defender:
1 hit per each attacking unit firing against warships and TTs.
This means that, regardless of the number of successful hits by the attacker and the number of automatically killed TTs, attacker cannot have more hits than the number of attacking units he has during this precise round.
If all the warships are destroyed, then you use the general rules.
If their is not enough warships and combat units to allocate the hits taken, you allocate the remaining one to TTs.
However, each TT casuality will roll his defense 1@1 even if the defender didn’t select them first to be on the front line.
They were attacked and killed, they got a defense.
Escaping is possible for transport:
TTs can escape (but it is not mandatory), like a submerge ability, by “Scattering” in the same sea-zone.
It is possible under 2 conditions:
a) there is no more combat unit able to defend them (like only subs against TTs and Fgs)
b) they endure at least 1 round of enemy’s direct fire on them.
Example 1: 3 Subs attack 5 TTs.
Result: 3 TTs are destroyed. Since subs got first strike, only 2TTs got@1, near 2/6 to destroy 1 sub.
But, with lucky shots: (1/36) 2 subs can also be destroyed.
After the first round, defender can retreat.
Example 2: 3 Fgs attack 5 TTs
Result: 3 TTs are destroyed. But with 5 TTs, defender got 5@1.
Some chances to destroy 1 or more fighters.
With these two examples, we can see the advantage of Subs (First strike) vs Fgs against TTs.
I find this quite historically accurate, a troop transport had some AA batteries and not much against subs. This will be another incentive to use Subs against TTs.
Example 3: 2 Subs 1Fg vs 1DD 3TTs
Seeing the overwhelming odds against DD, defender choose to push 1 TT forward.
Attackers has bad luck: roll “3” “3” and “4”, no hit against DD.
But, since 1TT was on the line of fire, then 1 TT is sunk.
Defender with DD and TT can rolls against Subs, so no “first strike”.
DD rolls a “2” and TT roll “2” : 1 Hit!
First round result: 1Sub 1Fg remain vs 1DD 2TTs
Defender see his luck (and bad instinct decision), so keeps 2TTs behind.
Attacker rolls: “2” and “4”: 1 hit! Defender “2”: 1 Hit.
Second round result:
Attacker have a 2 options:
if it keeps the Subs, it will be auto-kill on first strike 1 of the 2 remaining TTs, so 1TT defends @1.
if it keeps the Fg, it will be auto-kill for 1 TT of the 2 remaining TTs, but both TTs defend 2@1.
Now the defender can retreat safely with the last TT.
Example 3b: Suppose on the second round Defender push another TT on the front line instead.
Keep the same roll and the TT rolls “2” another miss.
Then Defender will loose by auto-kill 1 TT and 1 DD sunk, and it is OK since there is 2 attacking units.
Finally, the last TT will be auto-kill by either the Subs or Fg, depending which casuality had chosen the attacker.
Example 3c: Suppose instead, Defender goes all-in with 2 TTs.
Even if Sub or Fg got both hit or nothing, it is the same result: 2TTs are sunk by auto-kill but the DD remain.
But 2 TTs and 1DD roll on defense. Let’s suppose DD got “2” and TTs “2” and “3”; 1 hit!
Now, probably the attacker will oppose a Fg against the DD.
This situation of 1 Sb 1 Fg vs 1DD and 2TTs is very unpredictable. If the attacker had bad luck and miss with both, while the DD rolls a hit, it means the defender offer them 2 TTs to instant kill.
If the defender was cold blood and push his luck instead, he would have kept 1DD and 2TTs.
And the attacker would remained with 1 Fg.
Do you see how a naval battle becomes no boring predictable result depending both on luck and choices made by defending player? And how the tactical decision 1 round at a time can have an impact on what will remain of the defending fleet?
Example 4: 7 subs vs 1DD, 2 Fgs, 1CV, 6TTs.
Defender decide how much TT will fight: he goes all in.
Attacker auto-kills 6 TTs, and rolls one dice for a Sub@2, if he got “1” or “2”, then 7 out of 7 hits are taken.
Defender loose all TTs and take 1 hit on the CV.
Defender rolls for 6TTs@1 since subs First strike is cancelled by DD.
Here, you see that is possible to use TTs as screener.
You can also decide to spare them all 6 TTs behind, let’s suppose 4 subs survive against warships,
then 4 TTs will be auto-kill and unable to defend (Subs First Strike)
and 2TTs will escape and will fireback 2x1@1.
Example 4b: Let’s suppose the 1DD and 2Fgs received 3 hits from 5 subs.
Since Fg can’t be hit, then 2 other hits go to the 6 TTs.
However, both sunk TTs defend @1 since DD was still there.
If 4 attacking subs or more survive then there is no more TTs since they all get auto-killed.
And since Subs has First Strike, TTs got no defense at all. A complete slaughter.
This other proposition of TT rule gives more tactical decisions to defender,
but it will not be always transports screening since it is auto-kill for them.
Guess when it will be better to do it instead of protecting the “little ones”!
Sorry if it is not like the full strength TTclassic.
Remember, it is meant to be nearer OOB40 in which transport can’t survive and have no combat value.
ADDENDUMS:
1- An additionnal rule for precision should be made, to keep the attacker’s odds within reasonable limits when many TTs are put in auto-kill vs large attacking group.
Instead of rolling all dices for all attacking units, let’s first the attacker choose which attacking units are sinking TTs and which ones are left to roll dices against defending warships and aircrafts.
Example 5: 5 Fgs attack 2 DDs and 4TTs.
While 4TTs are on the battle board for screening DDs and rolling 4@1 and DDs2@2,
instead of rolling 5@3 for Fgs which it is easy to roll a “3” or less on 5 dices thus meaning an almost automatic maximum hit of 5 kills (5 Fgs attacking).
The attacker will only rolls 1@3, since only 1 Fgs can attack DDs while 4 Fgs are sinking TTs.
In a sense, this rule also imply the maximum hits limit according to the number of attacker’s unit.
2- 1 BB or 1StrB when attacking TTs only, it automatically sinks 2TTs/unit.
This addition will better represent the massive attack factor@4 from these unit.**
