This rule is part of the Axis & Allies Global 1940 2E, House Rules Expansion.
The Escort unit is a sea unit, that has multiple tasks. The primary task is to protect Transports as part of a Convoy.
@The:
“They could have left the roll @1 and just made it so the TTs must always be the last to be assigned hits… which is a newly implemented rule anyway.”
This is basically what we do except only when being attacked by all planes. The transport cant take hits but they still get their one. If 4 undefended trans are attacked by a sole plane the plane must survive the barage of 4 1s if it wants to wipe out the 4 trans. If it gets hit but still gets a 3 or less then one plane and one trans are lost. We found this was a fair balance cause its kinda bs when you leave your transports undefended cause you think theyre out of range only to be popped by a single far off bomber.
Very interesting, since you have play experience here. :-)
IMHO, I think it is a TT rule which modifies the initial balance, but for now I have questions:
What happen in your game with this situation ?
Rnd 1: 2 subs@2 & 2 Fgts@3 against 2DDs@2 and 4 TTs@?.
Does the TT can fire @1 against Fgts? Or @1 against the subs?
I continue with the example: casualities 1 sub vs 2 DDs.
Rnd 2: 1 sub@2 & 2 Fgts@3 against 4 TTs@1.
Does the 2 planes can retreat and let the sub do the slaughter?
If not, even if the Fgts hit nothing, is it still auto-kill for the subs since their is no hit value for the 4 transports?
Therefore, there is no third round. Correct?
However, 1 or 2 Fgts can be lost during the second round.
Is it the way you played it?
I think your rule is different than this one, am I right?:
@Kingpin2010:
My group has kicked this around to come up with a solution. What we came up with is against warships it’s same rules, but if the transport is attacked by just planes that it can defend at a 1.
So im not alone in wanting to let transports defend against planes but not warships :lol:
I also threw in destroyers…
@Uncrustable:
So im not alone in wanting to let transports defend against planes but not warships :lol:
I also threw in destroyers…
Alas… :cry:
For the sake of the truth, you got reason…
For the sake of the game simplicity, I think there is better… :?
On the other way (far away from “Taken last paradigm”), have you read about this post?
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30618.msg1115033#msg1115033
Last post on this for me….maybe:) I agree with KimRYoung. This thread is getting way to detail oriented on what could actually happen in real life.
IMHO this would be my rule (with the help of a bunch of people on this thread)…
1 or more transports get to defend 1@1 when they are all alone. Whether that is because they get attacked by themselves or they are the last survivors of a naval battle. Each transport represent an attackers hit (Can’t bring a bomber on 5 transports and wipe them all out with one hit. To kill five transports you would need at least 5 attackers). After 1 round of firing, they retreat 1 seazone. If all surrounding seazone are occupied by enemy warships then they are dead. All other rules still apply.
This rule is simple so that problem is solved. I couldn’t quite keep it down to one sentence for you KimRYoung. Transports are no longer defenseless so that problem is solved (which really is the point of this thread). Transports can not be used as a screen for an otherwise weak navy.
I realise that there will be anomalies. That will be no different than the ones that exist in the game already. It is impossible not to have them. This would just solve the only rule in this game that I am really against. All the other things in the game that “couldn’t really happen” don’t matter to me. This one does because of reasons mentioned many times on this thread.
The teams that would benefit (very small benefit IMO) the most from this would be US, UK, Anzac, and Japan. That alone tells me that the game would have a chance at being more even. The axis almost always win (the most unhistorical thing of all) WITH bids.
Fun topic though. I like all the ideas on here whether I agree with them or not :-D
Last post on this for me….maybe:) I agree with KimRYoung. This thread is getting way to detail oriented on what could actually happen in real life.
IMHO this would be my rule (with the help of a bunch of people on this thread)…
1 or more transports get to defend 1@1 when they are all alone.
Whether that is because they get attacked by themselves or they are the last survivors of a naval battle.
Each transport represent an attackers hit (Can’t bring a bomber on 5 transports and wipe them all out with one hit. To kill five transports you would need at least 5 attackers).**After 1 round of firing, they retreat 1 seazone. ** If all surrounding seazone are occupied by enemy warships then they are dead. All other rules still apply.
This rule is simple so that problem is solved. I couldn’t quite keep it down to one sentence for you KimRYoung. Transports are no longer defenseless so that problem is solved (which really is the point of this thread). Transports can not be used as a screen for an otherwise weak navy.
I realise that there will be anomalies. That will be no different than the ones that exist in the game already. It is impossible not to have them. This would just solve the only rule in this game that I am really against. All the other things in the game that “couldn’t really happen” don’t matter to me. This one does because of reasons mentioned many times on this thread.
The teams that would benefit (very small benefit IMO) the most from this would be US, UK, Anzac, and Japan. That alone tells me that the game would have a chance at being more even. The axis almost always win (the most unhistorical thing of all) WITH bids.
Fun topic though. I like all the ideas on here whether I agree with them or not :-D
Hi, Elevenjerk,
The evocation of history in this tread was a way to decide between a helpless Transport (somewhat able to escape, yet to decide) or a “combative” transport group able to do damage against even heavier ships (or solely aircrafts and Destroyers).
You seem to have pick in both ways to make a more playable TT unit.
And a way much more in favor of a defensive fleet, not too dangerous but more able to survive.
If I follow you:
A) No matter the number of transports, (1-2-3-4- etc.) TT get only 1 Def@1.
B) Attacker autokill 1 TT for each attacking unit.
C) All survivors must escape 1 sea-zone away. If all are enemy controled, they are all dead ones.
If I correctly understand you, I wonder why you decide B and C?
(For C, I rather prefer that unit stay in the sea-zone since its already an existing possibility that TT and Subs can share a sea-zone with ennemy units.)
If that true: "Last post on this for me….maybe:) "
I will miss you. :cry:
@The:
We found this was a fair balance cause its kinda bs when you leave your transports undefended cause you think theyre out of range only to be popped by a single far off bomber.
I’m sorry, but is it just the chessplayer in me that finds the above quote to be…. well… “whiny”? Hey, guess what, if that keeps happening to you, learn how to count better…
I mean, seriously, is this what this thread is about? Maybe we should also change how the Knight moves in chess, since, if I move my Knight to fork your King and Queen, the most powerful piece, the Queen, cannot retaliate. Yep, she gets no dice whatsover and is lost. What a stupid rule, isn’t it?? I bet Larry Harris came up with that one, too… :P
Seriously, if you actually make it a practice of protecting you transports, this entire thread is stupid. And if you don’t, well, then play a different game, but don’t whine when that bomber that you somehow didn’t see wreaks havoc on your little trannie fleet…
Yeah. I said it. :roll:
Transports and merchant vessels have historically have rammed into subs.
I do not see what prevents them from ramming into other naval units. They should roll a 1, cannot be taken as a casualty, they all die after shooting when no other ships remain to defend them.
I do not know how you guys would die, but if all the ships around me got sunk and there was no escape… I would ram what I can and hope for the best.
Give transports each one AA dice. thats it all else stays the same
@Uncrustable:
Give transports each one AA dice. thats it all else stays the same
You mean for OOB Global TT Taken last?
TT A0D0M2C7, each TT AA@1 against 1 aircraft only. Auto-kill vs other units. No escape.
Does Aircrafts can retreat when their is any surface vessels with them (DDs, Subs, BB, etc.) that can do the slaughter of the poor little TT lambs?
Well AA dice is generally rolled BEFORE the battle begins and casualties are removed BEFORE the battle begins.
So give current OOB transport each an AA dice (defense only).
Treat that dice as an AA dice.
NOTE: AAA get up to 3 dice per AAA OR the total number of aircraft. Whichever is LESS……
----Transports would get ONE AA dice apiece or the total number of aircraft. whichever is LESS…
So if 5 planes attack 2 transports…roll 2 AA dice.
If 3 planes attack 4 transports roll 3 AA dice.
If 7 planes attack 7 transports roll 7 AA dice.
@The:
We found this was a fair balance cause its kinda bs when you leave your transports undefended cause you think theyre out of range only to be popped by a single far off bomber.
I’m sorry, but is it just the chessplayer in me that finds the above quote to be…. well… “whiny”? Hey, guess what, if that keeps happening to you, learn how to count better…
I mean, seriously, is this what this thread is about? Maybe we should also change how the Knight moves in chess, since, if I move my Knight to fork your King and Queen, the most powerful piece, the Queen, cannot retaliate. Yep, she gets no dice whatsover and is lost. What a stupid rule, isn’t it?? I bet Larry Harris came up with that one, too… :P
Seriously, if you actually make it a practice of protecting you transports, this entire thread is stupid. And if you don’t, well, then play a different game, but don’t whine when that bomber that you somehow didn’t see wreaks havoc on your little trannie fleet…
Yeah. I said it.  :roll:
Dizz, do you play F2F board games? you could make that mistake. Probably not the best statement to prove a point however. As far as chess references LH changed the rule from the original stats long after we had destroyers available.
I was thinking transports just roll 1s during defense and offense, cannot be taken as casualties, they just die (except for the special case where a sub rolls a hit and no other naval units are left in which case you roll one less)
As far as the whole “strategy this and that come up with a better one.” That is a stupid argument. It is not what this thread is about.
In actual game terms this increases the viability of sea lion as well as the viability of USA involvement in both theaters.
then again I am not sure how big of an impact rolling 1s will have. It just increases the variability of naval battles is all. As far as big naval showdowns go.
It does give a chance for say 5 transports alone defending against one unit. Which kind of makes sense, just score one hit and you live, but it is small risk big reward thing for say a lone destroyer… I would still attack it.
Still you do not see undefended transports too often when it is autokill. One roll won’t change much.
Generally speaking in my group we play with a defense roll of one because that’s what we used to play when playing classic. We rarely get together for in person games so I don’t really care so much what Larry Harris or anyone else says. I suppose if I ever play a tourney or online I’ll have to deal with it. I just think auto kill is BS. I think those for some kind of defense have thought this out and are not some noob who is just making up rules.
I guess I’ve said my peace. The transport should not just get auto-killed.
Generally speaking in my group we play with a defense roll of one because that’s what we used to play when playing classic. We rarely get together for in person games so I don’t really care so much what Larry Harris or anyone else says. I suppose if I ever play a tourney or online I’ll have to deal with it. I just think auto kill is BS. I think those for some kind of defense have thought this out and are not some noob who is just making up rules.
I guess I’ve said my peace. The transport should not just get auto-killed.
What means “BS”? English isn’t my first tongue, sorry.
@Cow:
I was thinking transports just roll 1s during defense and offense, cannot be taken as casualties, they just die (except for the special case where a sub rolls a hit and no other naval units are left in which case you roll one less)
As far as the whole “strategy this and that come up with a better one.” That is a stupid argument. It is not what this thread is about.
In actual game terms this increases the viability of sea lion as well as the viability of USA involvement in both theaters.
then again I am not sure how big of an impact rolling 1s will have. It just increases the variability of naval battles is all. As far as big naval showdowns go.
It does give a chance for say 5 transports alone defending against one unit. Which kind of makes sense, just score one hit and you live, but it is small risk big reward thing for say a lone destroyer… I would still attack it.
Still you do not see undefended transports too often when it is autokill. One roll won’t change much.
Sorry, I’m not sure to grab everything you said.
5TT, which can under your house rule, attack, so 5@1, a 1 DD Def@2.
If the DD hit, the 5 TT are all sunk. But if 1TT marks a hit then DD is destroy and 4TT are still alive. Is it?
@Baron:
@Uncrustable:
Give transports each one AA dice. thats it all else stays the same
You mean for OOB Global TT Taken last?
TT A0D0M2C7, each TT AA@1 against 1 aircraft only. Auto-kill vs other units. No escape.Does Aircrafts can retreat when their is any surface vessels with them (DDs, Subs, BB, etc.) that can do the slaughter of the poor little TT lambs?
@Uncrustable:
Well AA dice is generally rolled BEFORE the battle begins and casualties are removed BEFORE the battle begins.
So give current OOB transport each an AA dice (defense only).
Treat that dice as an AA dice.NOTE: AAA get up to 3 dice per AAA OR the total number of aircraft. Whichever is LESS……
----Transports would get ONE AA dice apiece or the total number of aircraft. whichever is LESS…So if 5 planes attack 2 transports…roll 2 AA dice.
If 3 planes attack 4 transports roll 3 AA dice.
If 7 planes attack 7 transports roll 7 AA dice.
Thanks for the emphasis on the real AA nature of the @1.
Its another avenue.
If that’s so you mean they got a preemptive strike against aircrafts.
Is it acceptable for you?
When there is warships and aircrafts, survivors of a prior battle against escort warships, don’t consider aircrafts (be safe and not submitting to AA fire) for this second step of naval combat since the warships, by themselves, can take care of transports?
It will be similar to this, but not exactly similar because of your real preemptive AA fire:
@The:
“They could have left the roll @1 and just made it so the TTs must always be the last to be assigned hits… which is a newly implemented rule anyway.”
This is basically what we do except only when being attacked by all planes. The transport cant take hits but they still get their one. If 4 undefended trans are attacked by a sole plane the plane must survive the barage of 4 1s if it wants to wipe out the 4 trans. If it gets hit but still gets a 3 or less then one plane and one trans are lost. We found this was a fair balance cause its kinda bs when you leave your transports undefended cause you think they’re out of range only to be popped by a single far off bomber.
Wow - still going I see. I think everyone needs to back up and look at what this game is. Axis and Allies is what’s known as a “Beer and Pretzels” game among game enthusiasts. It is by no stretch of the imagination a serious military simulation!
Because the game is played at the scale of the entire world on your kitchen table, it must paint with a wide brush as far as reality goes. Now you have rules in it like “subs can’t hit planes.” Why not? Why did u-boats all mount AA guns? “planes cannot hit subs without a DD present.” Why not? You’re telling me a plane never caught a sub on the surface while on patrol? These are attempts to force more realism into the game.
Special rules can enhance play if used sparingly, but they can also seriously reduce the fun factor and bog the game down.
My proposal to return to the classic transport fits it nicely with the guiding rules of Axis and Allies since its beginnings.
Realism should NOT be the priority here. There is no weather in this game. There is no supply. Japanese tanks are just as effective as German ones. What the game does do well is allow players to have fun, make strategic decisions, and cuss or shout at dice rolls.
If you are worried about transport fodder, just bump the transports up to 10 IPCs. If your opponent wants to take his transport first as a casualty, let him. He’s still losing IPCs. He’s losing his ability to move units across water. Let the player be the commander. And you are still playing AXIS & ALLIES, not some mutant hybrid game that is attempting to match reality by flooding the classic game system with a bunch of forced extra rules.
@Der:
Wow - still going I see. I think everyone needs to back up and look at what this game is. Axis and Allies is what’s known as a “Beer and Pretzels” game among game enthusiasts. It is by no stretch of the imagination a serious military simulation!
Because the game is played at the scale of the entire world on your kitchen table, it must paint with a wide brush as far as reality goes. Now you have rules in it like “subs can’t hit planes.” Why not? Why did u-boats all mount AA guns? “planes cannot hit subs without a DD present.” Why not? You’re telling me a plane never caught a sub on the surface while on patrol? These are attempts to force more realism into the game.
Special rules can enhance play if used sparingly, but they can also seriously reduce the fun factor and bog the game down.
My proposal to return to the classic transport fits it nicely with the guiding rules of Axis and Allies since its beginnings.
- Every attack involves chance
- Defender chooses his own casualties
Realism should NOT be the priority here. There is no weather in this game. There is no supply. Japanese tanks are just as effective as German ones. What the game does do well is allow players to have fun, make strategic decisions, and cuss or shout at dice rolls.
If you are worried about transport fodder, just bump the transports up to 10 IPCs. If your opponent wants to take his transport first as a casualty, let him. He’s still losing IPCs. He’s losing his ability to move units across water. Let the player be the commander. And you are still playing AXIS & ALLIES, not some mutant hybrid game that is attempting to match reality by flooding the classic game system with a bunch of forced extra rules.
Good to see you back. :-)
It is a kind of closing the circle you started…
Or maybe extinguishing the fire you started? 8-)
I see that you still emphasis your preference for Classics.
It is still very appealing.
Strangely, there was many more suggestions of adjustment for the “Taken last” transport. It took me much more time than I expected at first to summarize the 15 variations and it maybe still going.
You said:
And you are still playing AXIS & ALLIES, not some mutant hybrid game that is attempting to match reality by flooding the classic game system with a bunch of forced extra rules.
Strangely, if you pick option one by one and take the time to understand it, you will see that most of them are just taking some little modifiers from existing rules, or used an A&A mechanics applied elsewhere and use it for their Transports rule.
Of course, their is still more or less simple variations, more or less realistic, more or less balance vs other units and have more or less consequences on the play balance between Axis vs Allies. And I’m sure, many made their posts for the sake of those criterias, not to create a monster.
Actually, I think the more we directly revert back to Classic TP, the more it changes the balance toward Allies. But many think Global is too much pro-Axis, so they can try a different TP rule instead of a bid.
However, after all that have been said, I’m still wondering:
If I change for less defenseless transport Taken last, which one will I choose to introduce to my friends for playing?
Nonetheless, thank you very much Der Kuenstler for your initial post and question. :wink:
It was a very stimulating one, I like all the thinking outside the box which generated from.
@Der:
Wow - still going I see. I think everyone needs to back up and look at what this game is. Axis and Allies is what’s known as a “Beer and Pretzels” game among game enthusiasts. It is by no stretch of the imagination a serious military simulation!
Because the game is played at the scale of the entire world on your kitchen table, it must paint with a wide brush as far as reality goes. Now you have rules in it like “subs can’t hit planes.” Why not? Why did u-boats all mount AA guns? “planes cannot hit subs without a DD present.” Why not? You’re telling me a plane never caught a sub on the surface while on patrol? These are attempts to force more realism into the game.
Special rules can enhance play if used sparingly, but they can also seriously reduce the fun factor and bog the game down.
My proposal to return to the classic transport fits it nicely with the guiding rules of Axis and Allies since its beginnings.
- Every attack involves chance
- Defender chooses his own casualties
Realism should NOT be the priority here. There is no weather in this game. There is no supply. Japanese tanks are just as effective as German ones. What the game does do well is allow players to have fun, make strategic decisions, and cuss or shout at dice rolls.
If you are worried about transport fodder, just bump the transports up to 10 IPCs. If your opponent wants to take his transport first as a casualty, let him. He’s still losing IPCs. He’s losing his ability to move units across water. Let the player be the commander. And you are still playing AXIS & ALLIES, not some mutant hybrid game that is attempting to match reality by flooding the classic game system with a bunch of forced extra rules.
Well i couldn’t disagree with you more on transport rules.
I think naval combat/fleet compositions, and the game as a whole, is better off with the new transport rules, and i’m glad i see it the way Larry apparently does.
Transports to transport
Warships to protect/attack transports
Simple
I just got my wife playing 1941 with me she likes the game a lot and is picking it up quick to the point where she’s downloaded the PDF on her iPad and Droid so she can read it at work when time allows.
That being said we fudged some of the rules like allowing shore bombardment for BBs. She asked what TTs defended at? I had to laugh and explain the whole saga. During the game she had to ask twice about whether or not she would have to fight against TTs I explained no, due to having no combat value. All in all she learned not to leave the transports un-escorted (which usually doesn’t happen anyway) which she did.
Whole point is that you may want to send out a lone transport out once in a while and it would be great if it had a fighting chance. The newer rule is do-able but adds the need to essentially double your amphibious assault costs.
My conclusion is that during a F2F, table-top, non-tourney game classic transport (or DK’s) rules have thier place. Larry Harris is never going to change it back and most people here won’t adopt it. So. DK and anyone else who likes the old(ish) rules, If we ever play F2F I’m game for those rules otherwise I’m not going to argue the point.
IMO the rule change since AAGC and AA50 is dumb as hell to me but that is how it is, and I don’t think believing so makes one an idiot for thinking so.
Anyway cheers to DK for such a great thread!