Help with minor victory game plz

[SlipShot762]

Just got the revised box, haven’t played in years, played 3 games so far.

My friends dont have the patience to play for more than minor victory and it seems a guaranteed axis win unless the axis players are dumb.

3 games, one first turn axis win, one second turn axis win, and one sixth turn axis win.

What can be done about this lopsidedness without playing for more than 2-3 hours?

Suggestions please?

It seems lenningrad/moscow/calcutta are too easy to get early by the axis, and the allies can only get paris with comparable ease early on?

Help?

[Jennifer]

Try playing for 9 Victory Cities instead.  With the caveat that you can surrender if the game looks hopeless.  That’s generally how we play tournament games.  The reason is, 9 VC for either side means the other side is significantly damaged usually.  However, you don’t have to take down two capitols which can take a very long time in a normal game.

Axis can win with their starting VC + India, Karelia and Moscow.

Allies can win with their starting VC + W. Europe, S. Europe and Kwangtung.

[SlipShot762]

Thanks so much for the swift help, that is not at all a bad idea, sounds better than having to capture 2 enemy capitals which is what a friend suggested doing along with making victory cities spawn 1d6 free infantry in the mobilize phase of any turn where said city didn’t already have infantry.

One idea we’ve been toying with is allowing bombers to drop paratroopers, treating them like airborne transports limited to 2 infantry only each and not allowing them to attack when dropping, being subject to AA fire and defending fighters. Anyone tried this? Does it work or is it unbalanced?

Also I’m wondering about if anyone has done alternate starting setups and how that would work, does it ruin the game or does it add fun playable dynamic? What restrictions would there be on placing what where and what system could be used to fairly allocate what units to each player?

Thanks again.

[Guest]

There are only a few ways to attempt an 8 VC game and not have it be an automatic Axis win, and most of them have serious problems.

You could give the Allies a bid to allow for reinforcement of Karelia and/or India at the start, but with the game already unbalanced in favor of the Allies, the Axis either win in 2 turns, or it is a guaranteed Axis loss.

The other option is to work out a strategy that defends India with a coordinated defense effort by Russia/UK; and even the US starting in turn 2.

Doing so successfully is a fine balancing act, and there are repercussions in Europe.  Though that second option actually makes for a game that will fall more in line with the actual war.  Victory by the Axis is achieved when they finally crack either Moscow or the Allied Defense of India.  Victory for the Allies is when they take and hold Western, relieve the siege of Lenningrad, and take either Southern or (more likely) Phillipines.

[Jennifer]

Or, and this is just a thought, allow the Allies to relocate one of their Victory Cities to another territory.  For instance, Karelia could be moved to Caucasus. (Instead of Leningrad, move it to Stalingrad, which was Hitler’s biggest objective in Russia anyway.)  Or England could move India to Australia (bad idea, IMHO, but could do it.)

That way getting 8 VC isn’t so assured.

[way2slo]

Yes, Leningrad and Calcutta are almost certain to fall to the axis early in the game.  :cry:  Therefore, I do not believe a quick Allied victory is possible in a minor victory game without very good fortune.

I believe your best bet is to do a KGF.

• Abandon Calcutta and reinforce Russia where you can.
• Abandon Leningrad, but retake it with a Russia & UK 1-2 punch later.
• Sink German Navy in Mediterranean
• Have UK and US fighters fly over for support once Leningrad is retaken.
• Have US do Torch, kick Germany out of Africa.
• Build fighters with US when you can.
• US reinforces London
• UK attacks/reinforces Leningrad via SZ4
• UK & US do Overlord
• UK & US slugs it’s way to Berlin and Rome
• Go after Calcutta or Shanghai for the win.

This is by no means “easy” or “quick”.  You all but give them the win at first, but I believe that if you try to defend Calcutta and Leningrad too early, you will be too weak to win later.

[Jennifer]

Way 2 Slow,

That is why I suggested the possibility of letting the allies move one of their victory cities.  I think it should be limited so that if you move a VC then you have to keep it in the same nation’s territory and obviously, it cannot be on the same territory as another VC.

Might want to exclude any moves to N. America as well as it would be as bad as where they are now, only it would be the axis who can’t win instead of the allies.

So limit it to Australia, Africa or Asia.

[Romulus]

@SlipShot762:

My friends dont have the patience to play for more than minor victory and it seems a guaranteed axis win unless the axis players are dumb.

I have had your same problem! Try saying them that the minor Victory condition has been emendated by the Marginal Victory Condition, with 9 cities!

Or, more preferable, play with the Minor Victory Condition using OOB NA. I know that they are unbalanced favoring the allies  but the important thing is to play! Maybe your friends will became more involved in the games after same matches and you may propose them the Marginal Victory Condition (9 cities) that is a fully different matter!
Even my friends, once sceptics, have begun to appreciate A&A played with Marginal Victory Condition (9 cities). So do not overwhelm them with long game session, and be content to play for less time, your objective is to cultivate in them the passion for the game.
Good Luck!

[SlipShot762]

Thanks for all the help! My friends are now considering all suggestions, 2 of them are leaning toward victory conditions being made into “capture 2 enemy capitals”. Moscow and London could possibly be gotten in up to 4 turns or so, but I’d say beyond the sixth it would be impossible. I’m sure there is a flaw with this that I am not seeing.

Part of what they are not seeming to get as you all have pointed out is that out of the box, the allies absolutely must play as a team to protect each others assets, for the axis, not so much.

So far I have yet to play the allies, everyone wants to play either the U.S. or Germany, that is until they get to play the U.S., then after that they never ever want to play them again LoL!

As for moving the victory cities, they are painted on the board and at some point I’m sure we’d forget we unofficially moved them. The last poster mentioned oob rules, what are those?

I’m leaning toward removing victory cities from victory conditions and instead contriving some other “balanced” victory conditions while coming up with a use for those now defunct victory cities, like freed tech rolls or maybe bonus infantry.

[Jennifer]

No self respecting British player is going to let London fall before turn 15.  Though, you could make mistakes and let it fall early.

[Zero Pilot]

Shipshot762: oob = out of (the) box rules

Playing for 2 capitols is really gonna drag out the game. Once you capture 1 enemy capitol and hold it 1 full round the game is over in realistic terms. Playing for a 2nd capitol just puts one side through the agony of shoving pieces around to inevitable loss while the other side revels in it’s “even dice can’t touch me now” smugness. ~ZP

[Guest]

You could also add a Revised version of M84 from classic… Economic Victory.

Though in Revised it would need to be about $90 at the end of a complete turn (end of USA move) instead of $84 from Classic

[SlipShot762]

In the games we had played the british player who was new btw, had hurled what they did have defending london against lenningrad in a failed liberation bid, and at that point it looked to me like i could get a couple transports and invade across the channel eliminating what remained next turn or so but it didnt go that far because calcutta was also taken on the japs turn.

The economic victory from classic was not included in this version it appears, but maybe that could be the victory condition used for shortgame. But wouldn’t that drag things out the same as if you played for major or total victory?

How feasible for a 2-3 hour game would capturing one capital be, both in terms of balance and difficulty/time required? Would players just adapt to squatting on their capitals with infantry stacks?

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

You could also add a Revised version of M84 from classic… Economic Victory.

Though in Revised it would need to be about $90 at the end of a complete turn (end of USA move) instead of $84 from Classic

Why the 6 IPC difference?  (as in what specifically, not just because there is more money on the board now. :P  )

Because germany starts at +8 and Japan at +5 so I would think you’d need to add 13 to the magic number, not 6.  So M97

[SlipShot762]

Hey im reading the tourney rules and I think we’ve been abusing tank blitz, help me with this if ya could.

We’ve been allowing tanks to blitz through occupied friendly spaces and unoccupied enemy spaces in BOTH the com and non-com phases……this is woefully incorrect isnt it, and partially explains why it seems germany is guaranteed lenningrad…Under what conditions exactly can tanks blitz?

Have we been allowing germany to throw more tanks than is legal against russia in the first turn?

And what about planes…unless im wrong it seems most of germanys planes can hit lenningrad on the first turn, like 3 or 5 of them…have we been screwing that up to?

Thanks in advance.

[Romulus]

SlipShot762, at me seems that your problem is not of the kind of objectives or the victory condition. Your problem is that your friend do not want to spend more than 2 or 3 hours in playing A&A.
As I said also I have had the same problem, and I resolved cultivating in them the passion for the game. How? Playing with the Marginal Victory Condition (9 cities) so there are no flaw in the game Victory Condition, but fixing the time for the end of the game.
By that time, if no side have the control of 9 Victory, you may use a predefined method to assess the winner, (the most IPC controlled, or the IPC gained, or the total value of IPC controlled (territories + units IPC value)), in tournament Games there are a way to asses the winner basing on the control of a certain number of key territories, that provide victory points.

Regarding Blitz, as stated in the rules, you may blitz trough an unoccupied territory, conquer it, and then finish your move in another territory, that may be:

• a friendly territory;
• another enemy territory, conquering it (so the tank may conquer two territories in a single move!)
• another enemy territory invaded by other unit of your nation, and so participating normally in the battle.

Moreover, you may blitz only during combat move.

Thanks can move up to two territories even if they are not blitzing. For example a panzer from Germany may participate in the attack on Leningrad in G1. Another example, in G1 non combat move, is a panzer from France that moves across Germany to reach Eastern Europe.

Regarding Germany first turn (G1) fighters, all six of them and the bomber can reach Leningrad legally. So you are working well with plane rules, in my opinion. The problem is that German fighters are needed also elsewhere on G1!

[SlipShot762]

Thanks for the input. The stuff that came in my box list minor vic as 8 cities, major as 10 and total as 12.

9 victory cities is a tourney rule right?

Also we are confused about plane movement over water, I know that an island based plane takes 1 move to enter the sea, another to go over a zone and attack, another to return to home sea zone and yet one more to land on the island, but non-island territories next to a sea zone have me perplexed.

Say the japs have a bomber on midway. 1 move to enter the surrounding sea, 2 to enter west US seazone, 3 to enter west US and attack, 4 back into west US seazone, 5 back to midway seazone, and 6 to land on midway? Or am I screwing that up somehow.

As for germany needing those planes, I agree that if it goes more than one more round they will need those fighters not bunched together post-attack, but if in that same turn (on minor victory 8 cities) the axis take and hold calcutta it isnt going to matter. I’m thinking that its just maybe that the allied players thusfar have done a poor job at blocking the axis from vital cities at the start, it seems feasible after scouring this site and these forums that preventitive measure can surely be taken.

The thing with going for 9 cities is that it irks me on some level that the game designers would allow for one sidedness in minor and toal victory resolution. 9 cities makes me feel like i’m correcting someone elses errors rather than adding to an awesome game.

One more thing, A&A historical looks sweet, can that be bought anywhere or is there a way to purchase updated historical map and reference cards? And the air unit first aspect of its combat, do many people (or in tourneys for example) use that as an additional/house rule?

Sorry to be a pain in everyones butt, until “my” players fall in love with the game too I must have some sort of consensus to give them an air of officiality to changes or adjudications or they will lynch me.

[Romulus]

You are right, I mentioned the Marginal Victory Condition, that has been introduce in Larry Harris Tournament Rules, and was so called Marginal to differentiate from Minor.
Really in the latest version of those rules, LHTR 2.0, the Victory condition has been reduce to only two:

Standard Game (recommended for tournament play) 9 Victory City Controlled
World Domination Game 12 Victory City Controlled

We normally play with the rules from the game (OOB = Out of Box rules) but use the 9 city Victory Condition, so you may use the standard game rules but play with the 9 city victory condition. It has been introduced in LHTR because the Minor Victory condition (8 city) is flawed, and cannot be fixed!

@SlipShot762:

Say the japs have a bomber on midway. 1 move to enter the surrounding sea, 2 to enter west US seazone, 3 to enter west US and attack, 4 back into west US seazone, 5 back to midway seazone, and 6 to land on midway? Or am I screwing that up somehow.

You are completely correct here, you counted correctly every territories and sea zone you crosses. I continue to think that you are working well with plane rules!  :-D

Regarding Historical A&A I do not know of the esistence of components that may be bought, I know only of the material that may be downloaded and then printed. Maybe someone else on this forum may be more precise than me.  :?

[SlipShot762]

When planes retreat or win a battle and have to land, do they all have to do so together or can they split up and land in different places withing range? Thusfar we have played that the planes have to stick together when retreating/landing.

As for printing that historical map and cards……wouldnt that have to be printed in sections and taped together, some resizing required etc?

PDF is the bane of my existence, I’ve always relied on MS word lol.

[Nix]

they can split up.

But the “thumb rule” in a 8 vc gam is to executa KJF, thats the only way for allies to win.