Help with minor victory game plz

[Jennifer]

No self respecting British player is going to let London fall before turn 15.  Though, you could make mistakes and let it fall early.

[Zero Pilot]

Shipshot762: oob = out of (the) box rules

Playing for 2 capitols is really gonna drag out the game. Once you capture 1 enemy capitol and hold it 1 full round the game is over in realistic terms. Playing for a 2nd capitol just puts one side through the agony of shoving pieces around to inevitable loss while the other side revels in it’s “even dice can’t touch me now” smugness. ~ZP

[Guest]

You could also add a Revised version of M84 from classic… Economic Victory.

Though in Revised it would need to be about $90 at the end of a complete turn (end of USA move) instead of $84 from Classic

[SlipShot762]

In the games we had played the british player who was new btw, had hurled what they did have defending london against lenningrad in a failed liberation bid, and at that point it looked to me like i could get a couple transports and invade across the channel eliminating what remained next turn or so but it didnt go that far because calcutta was also taken on the japs turn.

The economic victory from classic was not included in this version it appears, but maybe that could be the victory condition used for shortgame. But wouldn’t that drag things out the same as if you played for major or total victory?

How feasible for a 2-3 hour game would capturing one capital be, both in terms of balance and difficulty/time required? Would players just adapt to squatting on their capitals with infantry stacks?

[Jennifer]

@ncscswitch:

You could also add a Revised version of M84 from classic… Economic Victory.

Though in Revised it would need to be about $90 at the end of a complete turn (end of USA move) instead of $84 from Classic

Why the 6 IPC difference?  (as in what specifically, not just because there is more money on the board now. :P  )

Because germany starts at +8 and Japan at +5 so I would think you’d need to add 13 to the magic number, not 6.  So M97

[SlipShot762]

Hey im reading the tourney rules and I think we’ve been abusing tank blitz, help me with this if ya could.

We’ve been allowing tanks to blitz through occupied friendly spaces and unoccupied enemy spaces in BOTH the com and non-com phases……this is woefully incorrect isnt it, and partially explains why it seems germany is guaranteed lenningrad…Under what conditions exactly can tanks blitz?

Have we been allowing germany to throw more tanks than is legal against russia in the first turn?

And what about planes…unless im wrong it seems most of germanys planes can hit lenningrad on the first turn, like 3 or 5 of them…have we been screwing that up to?

Thanks in advance.

[Romulus]

SlipShot762, at me seems that your problem is not of the kind of objectives or the victory condition. Your problem is that your friend do not want to spend more than 2 or 3 hours in playing A&A.
As I said also I have had the same problem, and I resolved cultivating in them the passion for the game. How? Playing with the Marginal Victory Condition (9 cities) so there are no flaw in the game Victory Condition, but fixing the time for the end of the game.
By that time, if no side have the control of 9 Victory, you may use a predefined method to assess the winner, (the most IPC controlled, or the IPC gained, or the total value of IPC controlled (territories + units IPC value)), in tournament Games there are a way to asses the winner basing on the control of a certain number of key territories, that provide victory points.

Regarding Blitz, as stated in the rules, you may blitz trough an unoccupied territory, conquer it, and then finish your move in another territory, that may be:

• a friendly territory;
• another enemy territory, conquering it (so the tank may conquer two territories in a single move!)
• another enemy territory invaded by other unit of your nation, and so participating normally in the battle.

Moreover, you may blitz only during combat move.

Thanks can move up to two territories even if they are not blitzing. For example a panzer from Germany may participate in the attack on Leningrad in G1. Another example, in G1 non combat move, is a panzer from France that moves across Germany to reach Eastern Europe.

Regarding Germany first turn (G1) fighters, all six of them and the bomber can reach Leningrad legally. So you are working well with plane rules, in my opinion. The problem is that German fighters are needed also elsewhere on G1!

[SlipShot762]

Thanks for the input. The stuff that came in my box list minor vic as 8 cities, major as 10 and total as 12.

9 victory cities is a tourney rule right?

Also we are confused about plane movement over water, I know that an island based plane takes 1 move to enter the sea, another to go over a zone and attack, another to return to home sea zone and yet one more to land on the island, but non-island territories next to a sea zone have me perplexed.

Say the japs have a bomber on midway. 1 move to enter the surrounding sea, 2 to enter west US seazone, 3 to enter west US and attack, 4 back into west US seazone, 5 back to midway seazone, and 6 to land on midway? Or am I screwing that up somehow.

As for germany needing those planes, I agree that if it goes more than one more round they will need those fighters not bunched together post-attack, but if in that same turn (on minor victory 8 cities) the axis take and hold calcutta it isnt going to matter. I’m thinking that its just maybe that the allied players thusfar have done a poor job at blocking the axis from vital cities at the start, it seems feasible after scouring this site and these forums that preventitive measure can surely be taken.

The thing with going for 9 cities is that it irks me on some level that the game designers would allow for one sidedness in minor and toal victory resolution. 9 cities makes me feel like i’m correcting someone elses errors rather than adding to an awesome game.

One more thing, A&A historical looks sweet, can that be bought anywhere or is there a way to purchase updated historical map and reference cards? And the air unit first aspect of its combat, do many people (or in tourneys for example) use that as an additional/house rule?

Sorry to be a pain in everyones butt, until “my” players fall in love with the game too I must have some sort of consensus to give them an air of officiality to changes or adjudications or they will lynch me.

[Romulus]

You are right, I mentioned the Marginal Victory Condition, that has been introduce in Larry Harris Tournament Rules, and was so called Marginal to differentiate from Minor.
Really in the latest version of those rules, LHTR 2.0, the Victory condition has been reduce to only two:

Standard Game (recommended for tournament play) 9 Victory City Controlled
World Domination Game 12 Victory City Controlled

We normally play with the rules from the game (OOB = Out of Box rules) but use the 9 city Victory Condition, so you may use the standard game rules but play with the 9 city victory condition. It has been introduced in LHTR because the Minor Victory condition (8 city) is flawed, and cannot be fixed!

@SlipShot762:

Say the japs have a bomber on midway. 1 move to enter the surrounding sea, 2 to enter west US seazone, 3 to enter west US and attack, 4 back into west US seazone, 5 back to midway seazone, and 6 to land on midway? Or am I screwing that up somehow.

You are completely correct here, you counted correctly every territories and sea zone you crosses. I continue to think that you are working well with plane rules!  :-D

Regarding Historical A&A I do not know of the esistence of components that may be bought, I know only of the material that may be downloaded and then printed. Maybe someone else on this forum may be more precise than me.  :?

[SlipShot762]

When planes retreat or win a battle and have to land, do they all have to do so together or can they split up and land in different places withing range? Thusfar we have played that the planes have to stick together when retreating/landing.

As for printing that historical map and cards……wouldnt that have to be printed in sections and taped together, some resizing required etc?

PDF is the bane of my existence, I’ve always relied on MS word lol.

[Nix]

they can split up.

But the “thumb rule” in a 8 vc gam is to executa KJF, thats the only way for allies to win.

[Romulus]

Ok, when plane retreat from a battle they are, ideally, removed from the battle board and placed in the territory on the map where tha battle is fought.
(If you do not use the battle board leave the plane where they are, simply consider that they are not in the battle from the next round on)

In the non combat move you must land those plane in place where it is legal to do that: territories that you own from the start of the turn or seazone in wich a carrier is present.

If they win the battle… well… it is the same thing!  :-D They stay in the contested territory after the battle is resolved, and land in the non combat move.

In both case the planes may be treated independently and moved, individually, to a legal destination that they may reach.

For Historical A&A I have only downloaded the material, I have never printed it!  :-D
As I said I have had difficult times to convince my friends to play standard A&A historical may be too much for them!!!  :oops:

[SlipShot762]

Thanks so much to everyone, I’m pretty much outta questions for the time…save this:

In a typical 9 VC game, which VC are most often the Axis targets and in what order?

[Romulus]

@SlipShot762:

In a typical 9 VC game, which VC are most often the Axis targets and in what order?

Obvious !!! :-D

• German takes Leningrad on G1;  8-)
• Japan takes Calcutta on J3;  :-)
• German and Japan attack Moscow, using the 1-2 punch (German attack Moscow followed by Japan attack, Russia cannot reinforce between them).  :evil:

[way2slo]

@Jennifer:

Way 2 Slow,

That is why I suggested the possibility of letting the allies move one of their victory cities.  I think it should be limited so that if you move a VC then you have to keep it in the same nation’s territory and obviously, it cannot be on the same territory as another VC.

Might want to exclude any moves to N. America as well as it would be as bad as where they are now, only it would be the axis who can’t win instead of the allies.

So limit it to Australia, Africa or Asia.

Aww…  I want to see if the Axis can take St. Louis.  :evil:

[Guest]

I just had Denver as Japan for a round, but then I lost it…  :mrgreen:

[Romulus]

Las Vegas would be more intersting, maybe!  :mrgreen:

[axis_roll]

@ShadowHAwk:

well i think that 8 Vc is a bit to easy for axis although with a modification ( hold for at least 1 full round ) would be doable. Try keeping karrelia for a full turn with a full WRus stack next to it and a pending UK invasion at R2 with US support.
9 VC however is the same as 10 for the axis.
what do the axis have for options.
India karrelia moscow are really only feasable.

Sure you can take london but if you keep that 1 you won anyway.
Either US VC are also nearly impossible against a competent player.
So with 9 you have to take moscow and this makes defence for the allies way to easy.

The game either needs move CV’s so the allies have to spread to defend 9 of them or some have to be moved around. The whole idea of the VC is to make the players fight around the edges and this is also required for axis win if the allies can focus on a small front they will win.

Much talk arose from the lack of VC’s to make the game more than conquering/holding Moscow.

There are many lists of new VC to be added… I’ve seen lists with such cities as Egypt as a VC!

Anyways….

I am partial to the Enhanced version, which added 3 allied VCs: Stalingrad (Caucasus), Syndey (Australia) and Honolulu (Hawaii).

Of course the VC count to win was also modified.

@Enhanced:

1. 15 Victory Cities
-Stalingrad (Cau), Sydney (Aus), and Honolulu (Haw) are added as VCs for a total of 15
-Allies start with 9/15 VC, Axis starts with 6/15 VC
-Allies need 11/15 VC at the end of a ROUND (ie. US TURN) to win
-Axis need 10/15 VC at the end of a ROUND (ie. US TURN) to win

This opens up the game a bit as Moscow doesn’t need to fall and the Pacific is now really worht something with 2 VCs out there for Japan to go after and the allies having to defend.

[newpaintbrush]

@SlipShot762:

Hey im reading the tourney rules and I think we’ve been abusing tank blitz, help me with this if ya could.

We’ve been allowing tanks to blitz through occupied friendly spaces and unoccupied enemy spaces in BOTH the com and non-com phases……this is woefully incorrect isnt it, and partially explains why it seems germany is guaranteed lenningrad…Under what conditions exactly can tanks blitz?

Have we been allowing germany to throw more tanks than is legal against russia in the first turn?

And what about planes…unless im wrong it seems most of germanys planes can hit lenningrad on the first turn, like 3 or 5 of them…have we been screwing that up to?

Thanks in advance.

1.  Blitzing is combat movement.  You cannot move a tank into enemy territory, even if that enemy territory is unoccupied, during noncombat.

2.  Fighters have to land using their movement.  Leningrad is very vulnerable.  That is not a mistake.

3.  9 VCs is tournament standard.  8 is low.  10 is high.

4.  The Allies cannot protect Leningrad.  It is simply frickin impossible.  Therefore, in 8 VCs, the Allies must either take an Axis victory city, or protect the other VCs.

So - take W. Eur, S. Eur, Germany, Japan, Manchuria, or Phillipines.  Not possible early.
Or - protect E. US, W. US, London, Calcutta, and Russia.  Possible.  You have to build an industrial complex at India, and Russia has to divert a lot of forces to India early.  Against experienced Axis players, India eventually falls, but by that point, the Allies ought to be able to nab one of the other Axis territories (probably Phillipines).

In other words, for 8 VCs, you MUST do KJF with Allies.

I think 8 VCs makes for quite an exciting game.  9 VCs is just the old “imma force the axis to grind their way into moscow YAWN”

[newpaintbrush]

@ShadowHAwk:

Well how about 8VC but keeping them at least 1 complete turn. Capturing leninggrad aint that hard. But defending it. it a whole different ballgame.
Germany can at best move 10 inf 5 arm there. that will be going against the Wrus stack of 9 inf 2 art 4-6 tanks ( depending build R1 ) and 2 figs.
And after that UK2 also has a shot at that same zone ( after germany ) and germany cannot reinforce that much.

And this all relies on japan taking India on turn 1 ?

Sounds doable for the allies to at least survive till the end of round 2.

1.  Germany doesn’t have to stack Karelia on G1 because it just isn’t necessary.  Germany doesn’t even have to capture Karelia on G1.  With 12 inf 1 art produced on G1 and moving to Eastern Europe on G2, Karelia will fall and cannot be recovered on G3, particularly if G2’s build is 8 tanks.

2.  Likewise, Japan does not need to capture India on J1.

3.  It isn’t a question of “surviving until round 2”, but really, being able to sustain the defense of India, London, Moscow, Washington, and Los Angeles, while simultaneously trying to press on to capture an Axis VC.  That’s why the game MUST be KJF; any skilled German player can prevent the capture of Paris, Rome, and Berlin for quite a long time.  A dedicated KJF plan, though, can put pressure on Japan’s VCs (although it is by no means easy, and I think the Allies at somewhat of a disadvantage).