Thank you!
Preview 2: The Russian Revolution
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@WILD:
I’m sure this is the intent of the rule, and will be clarified at some point.
Some point being, what, the Second Edition?
Maybe we should wait to see the entire rule book before we jump off the deep end. There very well could be a side bar, or more info on the matter at hand. If there are some problems with wording, or intent Krieghund is pretty damn quick at clearing things up once the game is released.
Don’t give me that crap about ppl may not know about a Faq, or play only OOB etc… They will work it out on their own, or know someone on one of these forums. In today’s age they would have to be living in a cave or on a deserted island w/o power to be so narrow minded, or just choose to be that way (and that’s their problem).
Edit, below is how I would see it too (basically said the same thing). Removal of control markers line clears things up nicely. Once Russian units, and control markers are removed most territories would revert back to their orig owner, or be given to a power having units left after the withdraw of Russian forces. There could be some territories up for grabs (first come first served).
I would say that if Russia is in Revolution, you must remove all Russian control markers. Then it’s up to the remaining players as to who can establish control of the area to place its marker and start collecting cash. If there are units of only one Ally in the tt when RR occurs then its automatic, if none its the first country of either side to move units in. Until then consider the tt to be in a state of anarchy.
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Removing control markers has the nasty problem of respawning neutral armies. If Russia took Sweden, fighting and beating its standing army, then vanishes and leaves no trace Sweden was ever invaded, now their home army is reborn.
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Removing control markers has the nasty problem of respawning neutral armies. If Russia took Sweden, fighting and beating its standing army, then vanishes and leaves no trace Sweden was ever invaded, now their home army is reborn.
:roll: I doubt that’s the case. Who would play that way anyway?
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While we’re on the subject, I’d like to say that the idea that Russia went from an Imperial government to a Communist state overnight is a very Western (if not American) idea, and grossly oversimplifies the actual events.
I’ll be working on house rules that correctly model the Provisional Government, the Bolshevik uprising, and the Civil War in Western Russia.
:roll:
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Another reason the Revolution could be a good thing for the Allies is that it helped bring America further towards the Allies, as Wilson saw the Imperial regime in the same light as those of the Central Powers.
Therefore versions with an American entry track would see the RR move the USA a couple of stages further towards intervention. -
What is your Revolution/Morale tracker based on Flashman (if you’ve posted it in another thread, feel free to direct me there)? If it’s based purely on casualties, I might have a problem with that…
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Casualties
Loss of territory
Failure to make a major attack in a turn
Having your capital bombed
War fatigue (increases at the end of every year)
Morale can go up as well as down, but the trend for every power should be downwards, giving the game a natural lifespan as successive empires collapse.
I also have a two-stage breakdown; Disorder & Revolution. It’s possible to recover from the first, very difficult to come back from the second. Think of them in terms of the two Russian Revolutions. In disorder a power continues to fight, but with outbreaks of mutiny; in Revolution civil war breaks out. A country in Revolution is considered defeated for game victory purposes.
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Ok, I like that. There were major propaganda factors at play, and often the casualty statistics were grossly misreported.
I’ve been reading The Myth of the Great War (http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Great-War-Military-History/dp/0060084332), and I was surprised to find that up until the last year of the war, Allied losses on the Western Front were consistently double German losses, but they were reported to the general public (and the civilian government) to be grossly lopsided in the other direction.
In the end, it was a combination of factors that caused the revolutions in Europe, and from what you’ve posted here, it seems like you’ve represented that well.
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Also discussed in this thread:
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Ossel I recomended that book a while back. Best WW1 book I ever read. Really puts in perspective how close the Germans were to winning the war. His last paragraph in the book is fantastic writing.
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When I play this game, I’m going to have all unoriginally Russian territories stay under control of Russia but allow them to be occupied by both Allies and CP, like friendly neutrals from Global. My rationale is that everything with a Russian-control marker can’t be occupied, but with a neutral or aligned marker can.
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Russia should just turn into one giant strict neutral.
Though that ignores the ability of the Allies to help the White Russians, the neutral rule is the most simple.It’s lame that the whole thing turns into one giant Sahara.
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When I play this game, I’m going to have all unoriginally Russian territories stay under control of Russia but allow them to be occupied by both Allies and CP, like friendly neutrals from Global. My rationale is that everything with a Russian-control marker can’t be occupied, but with a neutral or aligned marker can.
So the CPs can’t attack Holland?
Serbia and Romania are off limits?
You need to remove all Russian control markers otherwise the game is broken.
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When I play this game, I’m going to have all unoriginally Russian territories stay under control of Russia but allow them to be occupied by both Allies and CP, like friendly neutrals from Global. My rationale is that everything with a Russian-control marker can’t be occupied, but with a neutral or aligned marker can.
So the CPs can’t attack Holland?
Serbia and Romania are off limits?
You need to remove all Russian control markers otherwise the game is broken.
I mean, anything with a Russian-control marker printed on the board, not counting the tiny ones on Serbia and Romania. Everyone can invade; the only territories off-limits to all are the original territories of Russia not either controlled or contested by the Central Powers.
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What happens to other Allied units in these tts?
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What happens to other Allied units in these tts?
I would say in the unlikely event that other allies units share a territory with russian units they must move to another non-russian territory if able.
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I prefer that they fight Communism.
Determine a method for deciding which surviving Russian units are Reds, and which are Whites.
The Allies control the “Whites”, who will include all Russian units outside Russia proper; the CPS control the “Reds”, including those in Moscow (and adjacent tts?). Use WWII Russian units for Reds, who cannot operate outside original Russian tt.
These sides fight each other for control of Russia; only when one has completely eliminated the other is the civil war over and Russia can re-enter as a power in its own right. Units of other nations are free to intervene. They will each need to manage their own economies.
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I prefer that they fight Communism.
Determine a method for deciding which surviving Russian units are Reds, and which are Whites.
The Allies control the “Whites”, who will include all Russian units outside Russia proper; the CPS control the “Reds”, including those in Moscow (and adjacent tts?). Use WWII Russian units for Reds, who cannot operate outside original Russian tt.
These sides fight each other for control of Russia; only when one has completely eliminated the other is the civil war over and Russia can re-enter as a power in its own right. Units of other nations are free to intervene. They will each need to manage their own economies.
For the most part, I like this, but it bothers me a little that other powers can participate (by bringing units in), since in actuality Russia basically bowed out of the War before the Civil War started.
I think it’d be better if no non-Russian units were allowed in Russian tt’s until the Civil War is over. Then, Communist Russia can enter the war (if it chooses to) on the side of the CP’s or a resurgent Imperialist Russia can reenter the war on the side of the allies.
However, I fully expect the (Big) War to be over before the Civil War…which is consistent with history.
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In all probability, yes. But it means the players cannot just ignore Russia. They need to do just enough to ensure that their own friends there keep going long enough to stop Russia re-entering on the wrong side.
The Allies intervened in North Russia initially to forestall German advances, then to prop up the Whites when it became clear that Lenin did not want to fight the Germans.
The Germans themselves agreed to help the Reds drive out the Allies, and put down the various anti-Bolshevik factions. They were preparing to do this when the armistice was signed.
Having civil war also ensures that the CPs cannot just abandon their gains in the east, they have to keep forces there to hold down the tts annexed in the treaty. Therefore, in order to collect income from Russian tts there must be a CP unit as well as a control marker present in the tt concerned. I would make this a general rule for the game, even in Africa, for occupied tt.
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Lets see if I can draft some solid rules here.
For the time being, assume the conditions for Revolution remain the same. So, at the end of a Russian turn, if the Revolution occurs, take the following steps:
1. Remove all Russian control markers. Determine control of any tts affected according to units present. If the tt is empty, then nobody controls it and the first unit to enter takes control.
2. The tts of “Great Russia”, that is Moscow, Karelia and Tartarstan, become Red tts. Place a Communist control marker in each to indicate this (borrow some USSR markers from your WWII games). The presence of units from the other Allies does not prevent Red control at this stage. Replace every unit in these tts (including the new units just placed in the capital) with Russian Red units; any WWII Russian pieces of a suitably distinct colour will do. The CPs must relinquish control of these tts, the Reds effectively become a 4th Central Power.
3. Nominate a CP player to control Communist Russia, but keep income and units separate. The Reds collect income from Greater Russia for next turn. The Reds may enter CP controlled Russian tt, but may not take control of it. However if they liberate a Russian tt from the Allies and Whites when there are no other CP units present, they may keep it.
4. Any Russian units in other tts remain in place and are still controlled by the original Russian player. These become “White” units fighting to overthrow the Communists. They function as a separate power, but are limited in ability due to a lack of cohesion; some of them are nationalists, some royalists, some republicans, some separatists.
5. The new order of play has two Russian turns:
a) White Russians. If the Allies control any original Russian tts, these are considered to be controlled by the Whites, who collect income from them at the end of their turn. Use the original Russian “Imperialist” markers to indicate White control. White units continue to contest tt with the CPs, and may defend with Allied units.
However, until Moscow is recaptured by the Allies, the Whites are limited to buying infantry units (they can keep any other pieces they still have). These can be placed in any White controlled tt at the end of their turn, but no more than one unit in any tt.b) Reds. May place any units they buy in Moscow.
6. Although Russia is considered to be in a state of civil war, the rival Russian factions can interact with the other powers, Whites allied to the Allies, Reds to the CPs, with the following restrictions:
Red units may never move outside original Russian tt in any circumstances, even to attack Whites there.
White units may exist and fight outside Russia, but may not gain control of non-Russian tt. If a White attack gains such a tt, control must be handed to a full Ally.
7. If the Whites gain control of Moscow, they obtain the right to build any unit there, while the Reds are now restricted to infantry only placements.
8. The Civil War will probably not end before the game, and as long as it continues then the CPs are considered to have fulfilled one part of their victory conditions, even if the Whites have regained Moscow.
9. If the Whites (and the Allies) completely eliminate all Red units, then the Civil War is a White victory. Russia is fully restored as an Allied power, and the CP lose their victory objective in Russia.
10. If at any time the Reds and CPs control all original Russian tt, the Civil War is a Red victory. The Whites cease to be a faction, and neither they nor the Allies may enter Greater Russia, though they may still fight the CPs in tt annexed from Russia. White units remain on the board and can be used by the Allies to fight, but the Whites can no longer control tts or collect income. Since Reds cannot move outside Russia, there is no need for further Red turns.
Issues:
Petrograd was the centre of the Revolution, as well as the Russian fleet. Since on this board not only is it not the capital, but it seems to have been placed in “Livonia”, therefore outside Greater Russia. On a more accurate map it would be inside Red tt, even if the capital were moved to Moscow. If using the official board, then, we simply have to pretend that the city never existed.
The Russian Fleet.
Ideally the Baltic fleet would become Red, being assigned to the Petrograd/Kronstadt Naval Base. However since on the official board this base is in CP annexed Livonia, this presents a difficulty. Probably it depends on CP control of Livonia.
The Black Sea fleet, being assigned to Sevastopol, would depend on who controls that NB. However the Allied players may decide to move such ships out of the Black Sea in anticipation of this, dependent of course on being able to sail it through the Turksih straits.
In fact, the CPs should be able to keep all Russian naval units bottled up in their home SZs to become Red ships, however the same restrictions apply to the Red navy as the Red army: they may not sail outside “Home” waters, i.e SZs with a Russian NB.
Russian ships anywhere other than in Red or CP controlled NB SZs become White.
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