Iraq is a political subject.
Iraq, again
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f_alk -
I would tend to agree with you about humanity- not being much different than animals- and would reply that in truth we try too hard to deny that we are little more than animals. only our ability to use and record language has allowed us to rise above the rest. we still have all the same basic urges of animals- mate, defend territory, self preservation, and species proliferation. the more we try to make ourselves out to be more than that, the less we’ll understand about ourselves. consequence- man’s dependancy on psychiatric drugs.
and your argument about a preference for soviet domination as opposed to USA’s two handed friendship, I can only reply with this-
ask your grandparents how they felt about the red army as it approached germany. those people we not out to win a war- they wanted revenge. they killed everything they could, and raped and pilliaged what they wanted. germans that couldn’t flee to the west (and surrender to us) killed themselves rather than be subjected to the russians.
two quick examples- both from the very informative history channel series war of the century-
one- they talk about a town were the people actually went down to the river and drowned their children and themselves. one of the survivors painfully recalled all the bloated bodies. - how determined do you have to be to drown yourself?
and the second was how the german soldiers who were captured were briefly interrogated - then had their throats cut! and the guy doing this bragged about it!
guderian himself was “very fortunate” to be staying in a hostel near the us lines when the war ended.US justice- Pieper’s ss panzer unit killed what 28 american POW’s at malmedy? after the war all survivors of this unit were sentenced to hang for this crime. but the US courts got involved- and only Pieper served time- what six years? and was released. of course he was quickly killed by a jewish assassin. but of course - we’re war like barbarians and life is better under soviet rule.
WHY then when germany re-united in 88, was the east so screwed up. why the sudden rise in inflation and unemployment. and as I remember many in the west didn’t want to absorb the east’s debt. they feared that they were in such bad shape it would bankrupt the country.
NOW those in the east had no such qualms about the west. they packed everything they could into those cheap little cars and headed west baby. lest the soviets change their minds. -
also a side note on terrorism-
the reason I brought up terror attacks in the first place(before F_alk) threw me off by denouncing me as ludicrous was to argue that the soviets we not merely defending themselves. they wanted us to leave so they would have europe. WHY? who knows, why did hitler want russia, or napoleon for that matter?
there were always terror attacks in germany. the two I citied were two I could clearly remember as a youth that were soviet backed. terror attacks continued into the 90’s in europe (and germany - berlin night club) but were middle eastern in origin.
my point was that… IF the soviets didn’t want war… why train and finance terrorists to aggitate anti american sentiment? we (to my knowledge didn’t do this). at least not in romainia, hungry, check, yugosl. ect.
another example- the nation that has peace as it’s ultimate aim for war realizes the futility in building enough nuclear weapons to destroy thr world 100 times over- then we build missle defense systems. the country that wants war states that the anti missle system could provoke war, then works on counter measures for our defense system.
and russia, china, vietnam they were all as close to communist as you can get. you will never achieve some magic utopia. their founding principles were of communist Idiology, they were as close as humanly possible. but humans are corruptable, so communism cannot work. -
russia, china, vietnam they were all as close to communist as you can get.
Have you listened to anything we’ve said? Communism is Democracy in it’s simplist form. The Soviet Union was Stalinist, and brutual dictatorship who believed in Communism as much as I believe in Christianity.
their founding principles were of communist Idiology, they were as close as humanly possible. but humans are corruptable, so communism cannot work.
No. Their rhetoric was Communist. That was no more than a shell. If your going to take Communism (Marxism) in it’s literal sense, it doesn’t work. Neither does Capitalism in it’s literal sense. Capitalism without regulation is Anarchism. Communism without Free Enterprise is slavery. You really need to wake up and not believe all the propoganda your Government fed to you in the 70s and 80s.
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TG mostly I’ll respond to the vehicle stuff-
batteries that will go 100, 000 miles? I said four years- typically the customers that I deal with will have closer to 150K on their cars in four years. so it’s the same differense- no offense.Lithium ion (or polymer) batteries have a higher energy density then FC’s…
TG TM jeez now I’m confused.
Ummm… we are two different people… :)
Yes, my brother shares those same exact work ethics too. However, he humbly states that his loyalty to dedication and excellence should not be accredited to him, but a way to prove that hardwork can still prevail in America and under a communist society. Maybe that is his incentive for trying…
… :o
Tg
don’t think I’m arguing with you, I don’t have an argumentative tone while I’m writing (YOU). I can see we are agreeing on many issues. however the benefits / drawbacks of communism isn’t/aren’t one of them. I feel strongly about hard work, dedication, and working for my goals. I see the belief that everything can be easy if we all just… as being contrary to those beliefs.Let me ask, would you not work in a communist society?
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@TG:
Let me ask, would you not work in a communist society?
i wouldn’t, if i get paid no matter what i do. let me ask you this. if right now, your boss told you that you could leave right now and go home, and you would still get paid the same amount, what would you do?!!? would you still sit in your cubicle wishing you were at home w/ your wife and kids? or would you go home and do nothing and still get paid? this is the way i think of communism. if i get paid no matter how much work i do, then i definitely won’t work!! it doesn’t take an idiot to figure that out
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YANNY! you’re back! boy did I miss you- no really!
anyways -YES - I listened to EVERYTHING you guys say- and I value your input- although I don’t agree with much of it. russia was not stalanist, the revolution was under lenin- BUt I think I made my point.
Because you origanally said that these were not true communist countries- now you are saying only their rhetoric was communist (in a nut shell) and all I was saying was exactly that. the core of their politic was communist. I to do not believe communism can work either. nor do I believe that pure capitalism is good (SUPRISE)- case in point - labor laws- without them workers were abused. unfortunately the same dirty dogs who you’d alllow to enter your communes have degenerated a good thing into a serious problem for american industry.
I’ll respond to TG now- when I got confused about you and tm I was responding to you and then your brother started responding to me, very confusing.
also would I not work in a communist society? what motivation would I have? to avoid the roundy round about who is or who isn’t communist. lets just say that in countries where “quasi communism” has been tried the results left much for a man to desire. ask f_alk about the name of the cars they drove- trebbies or troglodytes something like that- they had the same make model and style for 20 years. and then there’s housing- you go on a list to wait for a government apartment. you go to your work like an automoton. it sounds pretty miserable to me. that’s all. I want goals, I want adventure, excitement… you know, all the things boys and girls grow up dreaming about. a chance for an even better life for my kid, where he has every oportunity to be anything from a rock star to a rocket scientist. no limits… that’s all.and YANNY I don’t believe all the propaganda of the government- I just use that to get you stirred up. cause I can tell you are one of those conspiracy theory guys. you know… was it the mob, cuba, the russians, the fbi, cia or lbj??? :wink:
I just used the roswell thing to show that no matter what “facts” are given to you, you have already determined that GW is lying and the whole thing is just about fattening his wallet. NOT that I’m open minded…and I also wanted one more responce to F_ALK:
the thing about the worker bees was just a frustrated attempt to show that I don’t hold rich people in contempt just because they are rich. judging by most of the grammar and fancy words many of you use, :wink: I’d guess that most of you come from at least upper middle class families. don’t resent your parent’s struggles or hold them in contempt because there are impoverished people in the word. communism isn’t the answer- social programs that take away my money aren’t the answer either. if you feel something must be done for the good of all, use your resources to make it happen. this is america- you can be as rich or poor as you want. and F_alk the queen bee is the most important bee, she organizes the hive, grows the hive, delegates roles for the various bee jobs (GUARDS< DRONES< ECT) she works- cleetus however was just a ficticious bee representation of my neighbor who soaks up disability for a supposed back injury. DOES ANYONE ELSE understand what I mean? the bee thing has now officially lost any hope of striking a cord.
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man… it would stink having to tell your kid that he can’t try to be whatever he wants when grows up…
“hey dad! guess what? i wanna be an astronaut!”
“sorry son, you have to be a ditch digger, just like me”
“oh well, i guess i’ll just slack off when i grow up, just like you dad!”
“now you’re talkin son; now you’re talkin… hey, how about another game of A&A son?”
“shouldn’t you actually try working for once dad?”
“no way son, doesn’t make a difference anyway, i get paid the same”now that is what i call a govermental system
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at least the kids worth saving!
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And the “Iraq” thread was so productive . . . .
I’m curious about something. With the fall of communism, all of these countries now have their future “reset”. They may persue this valuable, beautiful ideal that is communism, however without the dictatorially laced corruption that accompanies it, or they could wallow in the slop that is the filth of the capitalistic pig-dogs in the west. Why, oh why, would a society in the 21st century give up this wonderful choice for something so arkane and undermining? -
not again :cry:
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i wouldn’t, if i get paid no matter what i do. let me ask you this. if right now, your boss told you that you could leave right now and go home, and you would still get paid the same amount, what would you do?!!? would you still sit in your cubicle wishing you were at home w/ your wife and kids? or would you go home and do nothing and still get paid? this is the way i think of communism. if i get paid no matter how much work i do, then i definitely won’t work!! it doesn’t take an idiot to figure that out
That’s the problem right there, youi naturally assume that you get “paid.” Under communism, a self-organizing moneyless economy can exist. Marxist theory touches on the fact of markets that did not use money.
anyways -YES - I listened to EVERYTHING you guys say- and I value your input- although I don’t agree with much of it. russia was not stalanist, the revolution was under lenin- BUt I think I made my point.
Please, read Trotsky’s “A Revolution Betrayed” if you want to learn about the period of revolution before Stalin. It will change your outlook on communism and on the USSR.
what motivation would I have?
In capitalism you work in order to get ahead of others, in communism you work so all of mankind can move forward together. Which would you choose?
I’ll respond to TG now- when I got confused about you and tm I was responding to you and then your brother started responding to me, very confusing.
I agree. I say we get rid of TM then. :wink:
judging by most of the grammar and fancy words many of you use,
Germans who can speak even better English is always a bad thing. :roll:
“no way son, doesn’t make a difference anyway, i get paid the same”
Communism is the means so everybody has the equal chance to become a “astronaut.”
They may persue this valuable, beautiful ideal that is communism, however without the dictatorially laced corruption that accompanies it, or they could wallow in the slop that is the filth of the capitalistic pig-dogs in the west. Why, oh why, would a society in the 21st century give up this wonderful choice for something so arkane and undermining?
The problem is that most communist revolutions were produced in 3rd world countries in which Marx never fully predicted. Again, read “Revolution Betrayed” on this.
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I would tend to agree with you about humanity- not being much different than animals- and would reply that in truth we try too hard to deny that we are little more than animals. … the more we try to make ourselves out to be more than that, the less we’ll understand about ourselves.
So you should be an opponent of cloning and genetic engineering then, right? 'cause in the long run it will elad to something like in that movie the name i just forgot… about the natural born guy wanting to be become an astronaut, the name of the movie was made up only by the letters of the DNA bases…
ask your grandparents how they felt about the red army as it approached germany. those people we not out to win a war- they wanted revenge. they killed everything they could, and raped and pilliaged what they wanted. germans that couldn’t flee to the west (and surrender to us) killed themselves rather than be subjected to the russians.
They were not out for revenge after the two german states were set up. We are talking of different times here.
And sure they raped and pillaged and were out for revenge. We drove them to that. You have to pay the price fopr what you do…. (sounds like one more of the lessosn the US has to learn: to accept its responsibility for its deeds)two quick examples-
one- they talk about a town were the people actually went down to the river and drowned their children and themselves. one of the survivors painfully recalled all the bloated bodies. - how determined do you have to be to drown yourself?
and the second was how the german soldiers who were captured were briefly interrogated - then had their throats cut! and the guy doing this bragged about it!To be determined ebough to drown yourself you need a good propaganda machine, plus some rumors….
Another story: My late latin teacher told a story from teh end of the war: He was actually happy that his village was taken by the russians (It was in the middle, close to were russians and americans met). He said that the Russians (probably they had had their revenge then and were “sated”) could understand the suffering of the people much more and did not use the bit of preserved food in glasses that the people had etc as urinals and worse as the american soldiers did.
guderian himself was “very fortunate” to be staying in a hostel near the us lines when the war ended.
Well, Paulus had a good reception by the russians after giving up in Stalingrad. Generals usually had a much better time that the average soldier.
WHY then when germany re-united in 88, was the east so screwed up. why the sudden rise in inflation and unemployment. and as I remember many in the west didn’t want to absorb the east’s debt. they feared that they were in such bad shape it would bankrupt the country.
NOW those in the east had no such qualms about the west. they packed everything they could into those cheap little cars and headed west baby.Germany was reunited in 1990, the wall came down in 1989. The
“sudden rise in inflation and unemployment” did take some time, first it was a boost to the german economy, with all the savings of the eastern people being invested (Sounds like Keynes does work, although he is not hip at the moment). That decoupled germany from the rest of the world economy going down at that time, only to be captured later twice so to say…
The biggest problem was the chancelor who prefered not to see some of the obvious problems that would arise (which did bring the victroy in the election, as his opponent pointed out that it would become expensive and everyone would have to pay his share, just as it happened). So, the “many” that feared the east was to weak … were social democrats… commies, as you would say… while the right wing christian democrats (the ones who should “know” about economics) lead germany into the crisis that showed up later, but as a result of the reunification. -
the reason I brought up terror attacks … was to argue that the soviets we not merely defending themselves. they wanted us to leave so they would have europe. WHY? …
my point was that… IF the soviets didn’t want war… why train and finance terrorists to aggitate anti american sentiment? we (to my knowledge didn’t do this). at least not in romainia, hungry, check, yugosl. ect.No, you did that in your neighboring countries. Contras were not terrorists, but freedom fighters?
The Russians probably had more interest in europe as they are part of that continent. Just as the US are in the Americas, where they were extremely active with such things.another example- the nation that has peace as it’s ultimate aim for war realizes the futility in building enough nuclear weapons to destroy thr world 100 times over- then we build missle defense systems. the country that wants war states that the anti missle system could provoke war, then works on counter measures for our defense system.
The country that wants peace wants the “balance of terror” to work. The one that wants war tries to shift the balance, regardless how.
Balance keeps peace, the ones who want to break the balance for domination brings war. (oversimplified, but my beliefs) -
@TG:
Let me ask, would you not work in a communist society?
i wouldn’t, if i get paid no matter what i do.
… or would you go home and do nothing and still get paid? this is the way i think of communism.You are a typical victim of US-american anti-commie-propaganda.
And probably you are contend with that…. -
russia was not stalanist, the revolution was under lenin-
…TG already covered that by mentioneing Trotsky.
ask f_alk about the name of the cars they drove- trebbies or troglodytes something like that- they had the same make model and style for 20 years.
Trabant 601 …called “Trabbies”
i would like to know why somehow the eastern block slowed down so much in its development in the seventies… they were keeping up well enough up to then.
you go to your work like an automoton. it sounds pretty miserable to me. that’s all.
It sounds like you don’t believe the above to happen in a western society…. which happens, just ask the people in the cubicles.
I want goals, I want adventure, excitement… you know, all the things boys and girls grow up dreaming about. a chance for an even better life for my kid, where he has every oportunity to be anything from a rock star to a rocket scientist. no limits… that’s all.
Probably you are white…. correct?
and I also wanted one more responce to F_ALK:
the thing about the worker bees was just a frustrated attempt to show that I don’t hold rich people in contempt just because they are rich.
I don’t do that either.
I hold contempt against people:
who are rich without having done anything for it and not taking up the responsibilites that come up with being rich.
If anyone for example steals a patent and becomes rich with it, and gives a *hit about charity, then i would deny him any rights.judging by most of the grammar and fancy words many of you use, :wink: I’d guess that most of you come from at least upper middle class families. don’t resent your parent’s struggles or hold them in contempt because there are impoverished people in the word. communism isn’t the answer- social programs that take away my money aren’t the answer either.
My parents are middle class, true. My girlfriends parents are not. I do not resent my or any parents struggle to give their children morce choices…
But: My parents could have afforded to send me to Uni, and they supported me. My girlfriends parents gave what they could to, but that would never have been enough for her to study… that’s were “social programs” work, and they work well. To be as blunt as you are: they are the answer, especially if the rich to not care about other than themselves.if you feel something must be done for the good of all, use your resources to make it happen. this is america- you can be as rich or poor as you want.
I agree with the first, and appeal to anyone to do it, but still there are some who just can’t.
Second, there are people in the world who do not live in the US, who don’t want to live there…
This is Europe, you can be as rich or poor as you want.and F_alk the queen bee is the most important bee, she organizes the hive, grows the hive, delegates roles for the various bee jobs (GUARDS< DRONES< ECT) she works- cleetus however was just a ficticious bee representation of my neighbor who soaks up disability for a supposed back injury. DOES ANYONE ELSE understand what I mean? the bee thing has now officially lost any hope of striking a cord.
I understand what you want to say…
To tell you my points:
(1)Why does everybody think that the head is more important than the hands, or the digesting system, or whatever part.
The best manager can’t work without workers (or workers using machines, or programmers controlling robots etc.). The best manager can’t live without customers who can afford the product.
(2) I do not believe that ourt current economic system is stable to the end, unless someone shows me that there is no case of more-than-exponential growth. Unfortunately, all economic theories so far assuem that to simplify enough so they can work with it. But (as a friend who studied with me and now does her PhD in an economics related thing told me) there are problems with the models. “Old indsutries”, like farming, are covered well, but it seems there is more-than-exponential growth in newer industries.
And if you have a look at game theory: Over-exponential growth inevitably leads to monopolism (say Micro$oft), which cannot be broken except by massive catastrophies. Therefore, this neo-liberalism that is emerging everywhere for me is the worst thing to do. (next to that they totally neglect the people, but only think of their shareholders (which are of course not the rich ones, but you and me cough)) -
f_alk why do you always post like 5 posts in a row instead of making it one or two posts?
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Because i reply to different posts…. and sometimes i cut them together…
plus: how else can i get my count up without falling back to massively posting one-liners ;) :) -
In capitalism you work in order to get ahead of others, in communism you work so all of mankind can move forward together. Which would you choose?
Do you actually think people care about moving “mankind” foward together? Of course not; they’re only concerned with themselves and what they can get. It’s human nature.
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@Deviant:Scripter:
Do you actually think people care about moving “mankind” foward together? Of course not; they’re only concerned with themselves and what they can get. It’s human nature.
Some do care about mankind. People tend not be concerned only with themselves: they are concerned about their families…. some about their friends as well, some about their tribe, village, city… some about their people… and some about mankind as a whole.
If you are not, you are anti-social, something that doesn’t fit to the humans being social animals. Therefore, why don’t you go and leave the rest of us, who care about all of us, alone and stick to those who don’t… and have fun in bashing each others heads in.
It is human nature to care for more than themselves only, and with our capabilities comes bigger responsibilities (just as someone richer has more responsibilites)… -
@Deviant:Scripter:
In capitalism you work in order to get ahead of others, in communism you work so all of mankind can move forward together. Which would you choose?
Do you actually think people care about moving “mankind” foward together? Of course not; they’re only concerned with themselves and what they can get. It’s human nature.
When the Iron curtain came down, the countries behind it were no farther ahead than when it went up. They were pretty much in the same economic state as they post WW2. Than does not sound like mankind moving forward to me.
Communism breeds one to a total lack of motavation and innovation, with out which, evolution suffers.In a perfect world, which its never going to be, Communism would be fine.
However, humans, by nature, are selfish.
Nearly everything you do is, in a sense, selfish.
Even when you do things for other people, giving present, time, money whatever is done because it makes you feel good. Which is, again, selfish.
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