BotA R2 DeadTom v. AlexGreat

[lexgreat]

Can you go from Istanbul to Izmir over land?

[DeadTom]

@alexgreat:

Can you go from Istanbul to Izmir over land?

No. I’d have to go through Ankara or make an amphibious assault.

[lexgreat]

point is you can cross without ships. I hate this map. But doesnt beat the non-connection between SZ 31 and 30

[lexgreat]

and its round 6 and we have 76 units in one territory. Too prolific, all of this, even if a better Allied player would have slowed the Axis advance and capped their income.
Germany has three (!) can openers, who’s idea was that? Sure, Allies have France, oh, and colonial France…
As if the Romanians had any command power, or the “Finns”.

[DeadTom]

This certainly plays very differently than most A&A games. There is a greater emphasis on can-openers and pressure points. Honestly, Russia will be very difficult to defend now, because they have been unable to put any serious pressure on Finland and lost Donetsk way too early. There is a lot of pressure on the US and Britain to gain some ground in Western Europe.

[lexgreat]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: New World Order, version: 1.8.7

Game History

Round :6

Combat Move - Russians
            1 Infantry moved from Olonets to Karchia
            1 Infantry moved from Olonets to Karchia
            1 Infantry moved from Archangelsk to Karchia
            1 EarlyFighter moved from Archangelsk to Karchia
            1 EarlyFighter moved from Archangelsk to Karchia
            6 Armours, 7 Infantry, 1 Mech.Inf and 2 Mot.Infs moved from Olonets to Belomorsk
            2 Armours, 3 Infantry and 8 Mot.Infs moved from Archangelsk to Belomorsk
            1 Infantry moved from Pavlovsk to Stavropol
            1 Mot.Inf moved from Stalingrad to Stavropol
            1 Bomber moved from Ankara to Stavropol
            1 Infantry moved from Kursk to Lugansk
            1 Infantry moved from Kursk to Lugansk
            1 Infantry moved from Kursk to Lugansk
            1 Fighter moved from Kursk to Lugansk

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 2 Bunkers, 15 Infantry and 9 Mot.Infs; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat - Russians
            Battle in Stavropol
                Russians attack with 1 Bomber, 1 Infantry and 1 Mot.Inf
                Germans defend with 1 Mot.Inf
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Bomber, 1 Infantry and 1 Mot.Inf in Stavropol, round 1 :  0/3 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 Mot.Inf in Stavropol, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 Infantry owned by the Russians lost in Stavropol
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Bomber and 1 Mot.Inf in Stavropol, round 2 :  0/2 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 Mot.Inf in Stavropol, round 2 :  0/1 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Bomber and 1 Mot.Inf in Stavropol, round 3 :  1/2 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 Mot.Inf in Stavropol, round 3 :  0/1 hits
                1 Mot.Inf owned by the Germans lost in Stavropol
                Russians win, taking Stavropol from Germans with 1 Bomber and 1 Mot.Inf remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
                Casualties for Germans: 1 Mot.Inf
                Casualties for Russians: 1 Infantry
            Battle in Lugansk
                Russians attack with 1 Fighter and 3 Infantry
                Romanians defend with 2 Infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Fighter and 3 Infantry in Lugansk, round 1 :  0/4 hits
                    Romanians roll dice for 2 Infantry in Lugansk, round 1 :  0/2 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Fighter and 3 Infantry in Lugansk, round 2 :  0/4 hits
                    Romanians roll dice for 2 Infantry in Lugansk, round 2 :  1/2 hits
                    1 Infantry owned by the Russians lost in Lugansk
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Fighter and 2 Infantry in Lugansk, round 3 :  1/3 hits
                    Romanians roll dice for 2 Infantry in Lugansk, round 3 :  1/2 hits
                    1 Infantry owned by the Russians and 1 Infantry owned by the Romanians lost in Lugansk
                    Russians roll dice for 1 Fighter and 1 Infantry in Lugansk, round 4 :  0/2 hits
                    Romanians roll dice for 1 Infantry in Lugansk, round 4 :  1/1 hits
                    1 Infantry owned by the Russians lost in Lugansk
                retreated to Lugansk
                Romanians win with 1 Infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -4
                Casualties for Russians: 3 Infantry
                Casualties for Romanians: 1 Infantry
            Battle in Karchia
                Russians attack with 2 EarlyFighters and 3 Infantry
                Finns defend with 1 Infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 2 EarlyFighters and 3 Infantry in Karchia, round 1 :  2/5 hits
                    Finns roll dice for 1 Infantry in Karchia, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 Infantry owned by the Finns lost in Karchia
                Russians win, taking Karchia from Finns with 2 EarlyFighters and 3 Infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
                Casualties for Finns: 1 Infantry
            Battle in Belomorsk
                Russians attack with 8 Armours, 10 Infantry, 1 Mech.Inf and 10 Mot.Infs
                Finns defend with 1 Infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 8 Armours, 10 Infantry, 1 Mech.Inf and 10 Mot.Infs in Belomorsk, round 1 :  9/29 hits
                    Finns roll dice for 1 Infantry in Belomorsk, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 Infantry owned by the Finns lost in Belomorsk
                Russians win, taking Belomorsk from Finns with 8 Armours, 10 Infantry, 1 Mech.Inf and 10 Mot.Infs remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
                Casualties for Finns: 1 Infantry

Non Combat Move - Russians
            1 AAGun moved from Olonets to Belomorsk
            1 EarlyFighter moved from Karchia to Archangelsk
            1 Mot.Inf moved from Omsk to Karchia
            4 Mot.Infs moved from Omsk to Karchia
            1 AAGun moved from Olonets to Karchia
            1 Bomber moved from Stavropol to Stalingrad
            1 Infantry moved from Stalingrad to Pavlovsk
            1 Fighter moved from Lugansk to Saratov
            3 AAGuns, 1 Armour, 2 Artillerys, 1 Bigarmour, 30 Infantry and 16 Mot.Infs moved from Kursk to Saratov
            1 EarlyFighter moved from Karchia to Archangelsk
            1 Mot.Inf moved from Moscow to Archangelsk
            1 Infantry moved from Moscow to Kaluga
            8 Infantry moved from Moscow to Gorky
            1 Bomber moved from Stalingrad to Saratov

Place Units - Russians
            1 Bunker placed in Ankara
            4 Mot.Infs placed in Ankara
            4 Mot.Infs placed in Archangelsk
            1 Bunker placed in Nikolsk
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Nikolsk: 1 Bunker
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            10 Infantry placed in Moscow
            5 Infantry placed in Stalingrad
            1 Mot.Inf placed in Omsk
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Omsk: 1 Infantry and 1 Mot.Inf
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - Russians
            Russians collect 66 PUs; end with 66 PUs total

[DeadTom]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: New World Order, version: 1.8.7

Game History

Round :6

Combat Move - Italians
            6 Armours, 3 Artillerys and 8 Infantry moved from Istanbul to Ankara
            1 Artillery and 11 Infantry moved from Greece to sz49
            1 Artillery, 1 Battleship, 1 Carrier, 3 Destroyers, 11 Infantry, 14 Submarines and 6 Transports moved from sz49 to sz52
            1 Artillery and 11 Infantry moved from sz52 to Ankara
            1 Me262 moved from sz49 to sz59
            1 Armour moved from Tripoli to Tobruk
                  Italians take Tobruk from ColonialFrench
            1 Armour moved from Tobruk to Tripoli
            1 EarlyFighter moved from Greece to sz60
            1 EarlyFighter moved from sz49 to sz60

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 4 ArmoredCars, 1 Armour, 14 Infantry and 5 Submarines; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat - Italians
            Battle in Ankara
                Italians attack with 6 Armours, 4 Artillerys and 19 Infantry
                Russians defend with 1 AAGun, 2 Armours, 1 Bunker, 1 Elite, 1 Factory, 3 Infantry, 1 Katyusha and 5 Mot.Infs
                Units damaged: 1 Bunker owned by the Russians
                Italians win, taking Ankara from Russians with 6 Armours, 4 Artillerys and 15 Infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 43
                Casualties for Russians: 2 Armours, 1 Bunker, 1 Elite, 3 Infantry, 1 Katyusha and 5 Mot.Infs
                Casualties for Italians: 4 Infantry
            Battle in sz59
                Italians attack with 1 Me262
                ColonialFrench defend with 1 Submarine
                Italians win with 1 Me262 remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for ColonialFrench: 1 Submarine
            Battle in sz60
                Italians attack with 2 EarlyFighters
                Russians defend with 1 Submarine
                1 Submarine owned by the Russians Submerged

Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 EarlyFighter moved from sz60 to Greece
            1 EarlyFighter moved from sz60 to sz52
            1 Me262 moved from sz59 to sz52
            1 Destroyer and 3 T.Boats moved from sz38 to sz37
            1 Submarine moved from sz51 to sz50
            1 AAGun moved from Istanbul to Ankara
            1 AAGun moved from E.Czech to Lvov
            8 Infantry moved from Roma to Napoli
            1 Infantry moved from Foggia to Napoli
            4 Infantry moved from Taranto to Napoli

Place Units - Italians
            4 Infantry placed in C.Morocco
            3 Infantry placed in Barcelona
            3 Infantry placed in Marseille
            4 Infantry placed in Genova
            5 Submarines placed in sz41
            4 ArmoredCars and 1 Armour placed in Greece

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 86 PUs; end with 86 PUs total

[Veqryn]

the effect of can openers is sort of reduced by the fact that mobility cost sooo much, and infantry are super cheap

so, when infantry cost 2, and tanks cost 5, that is more than double for a tank

so any stack is going to be infantry heavy

and the number of territories (and relatively low value of each) also reduce this.  with the exception of leningrad, what exactly are finland and romania going to can open for exactly?  by the time leningrad falls, the rest of russia should be a fortress, so there is no way they are can opening for moscow or stalingrad (and even if they did, russia would be happy to let them, then kill the german high value tanks after they get there)

[DeadTom]

For this game, can-openers have played a major role though. Already the Finns gave the Germans a landing zone allowing them to take Leningrad, a Romanian can-opener allowed Germany to take Rostov and hold it so far, and a German can-opener allowed the Italians to take Ankara. Meanwhile, lack of can-openers for the Russians has crippled the mobile Russian forces.

[lexgreat]

Veq, see my PM. You can forward to DeadTom, of course.

This has nothing to do with insufficient skills here, DeadTom deserves the lead he is in because he plays well. Doesnt change my opinion, though.

[lexgreat]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: New World Order, version: 1.8.7

Game History

Round :6

Combat Move - ColonialFrench
            1 Armour moved from W.Egypt to Tobruk
                  ColonialFrench take Tobruk from Italians
            1 Armour moved from Tobruk to W.Egypt
            1 Transport moved from sz36 to sz11
            1 Transport moved from sz11 to sz2
            1 Infantry moved from S.Canada to sz2

Purchase Units - ColonialFrench
            ColonialFrench buy 1 Armour and 1 Infantry; Remaining resources: 2 PUs;

Combat - ColonialFrench

Non Combat Move - ColonialFrench
            1 AAGun moved from S.Canada to sz2
            1 Mot.Inf moved from Portugal to Madrid
            1 Infantry moved from Portugal to Madrid
            1 Infantry moved from Portugal to Madrid

Place Units - ColonialFrench
            1 Armour and 1 Infantry placed in S.Canada
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by ColonialFrench from S.Canada: 1 Infantry
            EDIT: Changing PUs for ColonialFrench from 2 to 4
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - ColonialFrench
            ColonialFrench collect 9 PUs; end with 13 PUs total

[Veqryn]

@alexgreat:

What you say is that it makes no difference? Perfect, make all those areas German from the start, and move within one movement phase. Of course they can open up possibilities, doesnt need to be an attack against Moscow.

Look, I dont need more than look at the logo on the top right and on the name of the designer (you know what “Sieg” means and which language it is) to have a good idea about the way this game should go. That does not mean that bad play (mine, surely) isnt the biggest influcence on outcome, but dont your game notes mention the game is slanted towards the Axis when more experienced people play? How many times the allies would win against very good Axis players? 5/10?

Infantry is as cheap for the Axis, and gives even low income countries like Finland and Romania to stack heavily. And Russia would have to buy more factories to really build in huge numbers.

N.Finland and Leningrad (once German) outproduce Archangelsk, Ukr. and Donets are the same as Stalingra and Rostov. Yes, leaves Moscow to plug the holes. Omsk and Warsaw are similar, yes, Omks can be quicker on the front. And then thats it. Leaves all German and French factories. Italy with its income can conveniently move to Ankara and still easily match a UK fleet in the Med.

27 German units are free to defend France, I dont see that they are missed in the East. Even holding the status quo gives Germany a huge income advantage.

US: Ok, if a fleet is in order, multiple serious landings can be ruled out. One can be done. Slow.

UK: Have to build ships at a huge rate to keep up. How many units do I have to land to withstand 27 units in round 6 and still have a competitive warship navy as well?

I am perfectly aware that a winning Allies player, and a losing Axis player, will see this differently, and I am willing to play longer to better judge this, but my opinion stands: For two equal players, I dont know any other map more slanted towards one side.

Well first off, I didn’t make the map, the designers are Sieg and EB, who are german and dutch i think.

I will say however that this map/game has been out since around 2004, and it is VERY competitive.  By competitive, I mean there are yearly tournaments regularly attracting 32 people just for this map, without any payout or awards.  Of all the maps on TripleA, this one is the most popular, and I see it playing about as much as the other most popular map: A&A 50th Anniversary (ww2v3).

The map is VERY balanced, because it has been continuously tweaked and balanced over 8 years of playtesting and seriously hard playing.  When people bid to play one side or the other, 99% of the time the bids are between -2 and 2, with no clear preference for a specific side.
The balance is actually as follow:
For very new players, complete beginners: Allies have an advantage (mostly because Axis do not know any good opening moves)
For intermediate players: Axis have an advantage after they figure out some good opening moves
For expert, advanced players: Both sides are equal

If you have any questions about good, or specific, strategies that the Allies can use to win against a decent Axis player, I would suggest talking to “ice”, as he is probably one of the top 10 or top 5 players for this map.

[pug6000]

@ alexgreat:
What about a little bet? I offer you a starting bid of 10 PU Axis advantage. As you are so sure this game isnt balanced, we should increase your fun by raising the stake to 10$ for the winner.

As veqryn says: this is the most balanced map of the whole community.

The problem is, it is big and will take a moment to understand. I will try to give you a slight impression on it.

When Germany takes France, France normally has to evade (only newbie German players take to few units that Germany can’t take Paris). Ok, it evades to Le Havre, joins forces with UK expedition force. UK needs 5 to 7 transports in the Channel for that.
Ok, what choice does Germany have? It can commit a larger portion of it’s units to the West. Problem - Finnland also needs support. Oh, and you will need units in Russia to advance. The problem gets even bigger, because you will have to build infantry early, otherwise they wont be in the East when you need them. Another possibility? Of course - building a German fleet and defeat the British Royal navy. Have fun. Maybe you will succeed, but ships and fighters are expensive … and you will miss that money in the East.
Sounds like advantage for Allies now? I am not done. Comminting all British forces (or most forces) in the Channel and France means the Middle East gets weak - and Italy strong.

I could go on and on like this. NWO is about trading strengthes for weaknesses. All the time. And you will alwas curse your decision when you take a look at your weak spots. And different to the smaller maps, there are really a lot decisions to be made.

Pug

[lexgreat]

So all the experts say this map is best and totally balanced. This has weight and I am very fine with it. So it just needs a dozen or so games to see it, and much more time for every move. I am very fine with that as well, could easily be true.

I still have never seen a map I was more uncomfortable with than this one from game one on, win or lose. Is this an acceptable wording? With a small kid and a job I’d like to have some fun without brooding hours over one move. I simply cannot claim that “a moment” is enough for me to be more competitive.

So, in summary, I will rest my case as pro-players see this game balanced for pro-play. I have no reason to doubt that. And I retreat to a statement like this: NWO is, for me, no fun, as compared to all the other maps I tried so far on Triple A.

@pug6000: Thx for involvement and insights. I dont doubt that you would win (as I said, good or bad play still has the biggest influence on oucome, and your accumulated experience would outweigh a bid higher than 10). Why you would offer me “more fun”, however, is beyond me. You respond to a paragraph that clearly, whatever your own opinion, shows that I dont have fun at all. Not with Allies, not with Axis. Think I did not say that Axis players have more fun, btw.
@Veq: I wounded your pride as developer, apparently, otherwise you would not have posted a PM here. I never intended to.

[pug6000]

@alexgreat:

@pug6000: Thx for involvement and insights. I dont doubt that you would win (as I said, good or bad play still has the biggest influence on oucome, and your accumulated experience would outweigh a bid higher than 10). Why you would offer me “more fun”, however, is beyond me. You respond to a paragraph that clearly, whatever your own opinion, shows that I dont have fun at all. Not with Allies, not with Axis. Think I did not say that Axis players have more fun, btw.

My appologies. Sometimes I cant resist with some irony. Your message was a bit extreme so I responded similar. But I still offer you a game with discusssion and with a starting bid of 10 PU to your advantage. The main point would be to discuss the pros and cons of the different options. Maybe that’s also interesting for other players new to NWO.

I think what you experience is the main difference between big and small maps. I love big maps and avoid small maps as long as I can. My opponent at NWO also “complained” about the amount of planning involved in this map while I really enjoy it. And if one is not used to it in that amount, one will not enjoy such a map, at least at first.

Pug

[lexgreat]

I can understand the urge to use irony, in general.

I’d love to be able to immerse myself into games, and so I did when I studied, but simply cannot do so now. Excellent challenges can be had with other maps as well, thankfully, because players here are so good.

It might not be possible to create large maps without the appearance of imbalance (because they inherently need more time to be mastered), I dont know, but somehow I dont think so.

[Veqryn]

@alexgreat:

@Veq: I wounded your pride as developer, apparently, otherwise you would not have posted a PM here. I never intended to.

No actually, when you said to forward it to Tom, I figured it would just be easier to copy it here and respond here. 
The main reason I wanted to respond here was because I felt anyone should be able to read my comments on the balance of the game, since it seemed to be part of an ongoing conversation rather then a ‘pm’.  There was nothing in the message that was really private, so I didn’t think it would be a problem to respond here. 
Sorry if that caused any misunderstanding, it was certainly not meant in any bad way.

[ice]

if i may be so free as to post my oppinion as an nwo regular,

if ur stugeling with allied play you should really go back to the basics, meaning look at old revised. how did allies get so strong? gangbang germany with everything they got?

wel nwo is not much different, if you try to advance on every side of the map ull be beaten in most of them, instead focus on 1 or 2 importand positions and gangbang those, example if ur having trouble with russia, gangbang germany in the west with brit AND usa, soon ull see russia come back because germany cant put 100 ipc in that direction nomore.

i could go a thousend pages for strategys and all about nwo, but if you have specific questions im happy to asnwer them, simply for my love to nwo and i wanna share it with as much people as possible

ice

[lexgreat]

I might come back to your invite

[DeadTom]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: New World Order, version: 1.8.7

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Finns
            Finns buy 1 Bunker, 5 Infantry and 1 Mot.Inf; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Non Combat Move - Finns
            1 Artillery and 2 Infantry moved from Narvik to N.Finnland
            2 Infantry moved from N.Finnland to sz28
            1 Infantry moved from S.Finnland to sz28
            3 Infantry moved from sz28 to Leningrad
            1 Armour moved from S.Finnland to Leningrad

Place Units - Finns
            1 Bunker, 5 Infantry and 1 Mot.Inf placed in N.Finnland

Turn Complete - Finns
            Finns collect 19 PUs; end with 19 PUs total