The only thing I wonder at, is why smorey seems so hostile?
+1
Huh, that is so weird. I guess all the hours that Greg and I and our other GM Kelly put into running these events, developing relationships with the players and listening to their ideas and changing things when there is a strong demand AND the large number of cool prizes and A&A gear that are given out was ALL IN MY FRIGGIN HEAD.
Casual players are idiots, and letting them have a say in how to play a game like this is like letting an physics undergrad run a hadron collider. It cute how you talk about all the hours your pour into learning what the community wants, yet you hardly seem to spend much time on here with what is arguably the largest community of A&A players, did it take you hours to make all 15 of those posts?
Perhaps you should get out from behind your computer and organize an event or two. You may be surprised to find that what works in the online world does not work as well in the real world (remembering of course that A&A is a BOARD game - which was designed to be played on a board and in a FTF environment).
Perhaps you should pull your head out of the sand :-) and realize that we all play face to face, with Gar being one of the most hard core out of the lot as he flew across Canada to play a bunch of us at the FMG convention. I drove 10 hours from southern New England to be there, but I suppose because i’m on a post board I must automatically be some sort of shut in right? cause that’s not stupid assumption or anything. These forums are where we come to share our experiences with the game and impart some our insight with each other, so you can trumpet that you’re all about what the players want, but its pretty obvious you only represent WotC interests.
What works for online play (and online tournaments) in some cases, will NOT work for FTF play (and FTF tournaments).
Please explain how Calculating NO’s doesn’t work in a tournament setting?
Please also explain why players can’t CHOOSE to play 41, 42, NO’s +/-, tech +/-? What’s the federal offense here?
Just as Bushidoblitz put it… these are game CHOICES. If both parties of a game are willing to play by an acceptable standard of thier choosing, (for each game) be it what’s suggested, or what they like, then what is the problem? If either side can’t agree on any one of the issues, they can BOTH agree to die roll, OR failing that, they must take the “suggested” tournament setting you provide.
At least the door is open to the “options” phase of the game.
As it stands the “Optional” choices presented in the rulebook, and 50% of the setup possibilities are entirely removed. For some “lofty notion” that NO’s take extra time to calculate?!?! :S Denying these options, deny’s the essence of the game.
And yes I’m brash, that’s what AA.org pays me to be, and look at all the free advertising I have brought Gen Con, by causing conflict and interest! :evil:
I’ll accept the terms of “truce” if players are allowed a “negotiate options or accept default phase” pregame! :P
i can has garg play?
ya garg….
if you have time to post here… you have time to do g1 in our game…
seriously, g1 is standard 99% of the time anyway, so just pump it out already!
Gargantua,
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on some of these points. Calculating NOs can, of course, work - but hasn’t been added for the reasons BB stated in his post.
I think, though, that running a tournament where the rules of each game can be different only presents problems. In fact, I have seen some issues with arguments over rules that ARE posted and consistent - let alone things that may change from game to game. I get your point though - I just think it opens a tournament director to conflict.
Every year there is discussion on what changes need to be made to the tournaments and every year most of the people who played in the previous year are satisfied with the format and rules. Technology will probably never be introduced again - for the reasons BB indicated. NOs, however, are always on the table and, I suspect, we will ask those players that do come their opinion on it this year. I think, however, you would find that AA50 is still a lot of fun without NOs - different - but not bad.
Clyde85 - I will apologize for making the generalization that all online players are just that - just online players. That was narrowminded. But understand that we try to bring all players into the tournaments - including the casual or semi-casual (they are not idiots - we all started as a newb at some point). The exception was the old Masters tournament at GenCon which hopefully will come back.
To the point made by Scarapis - we have NOT changed the rules at all. Tech and NOs are OPTIONAL rules - by NOT using them, we have changed nothing. Larry Harris himself has been involved with many of these discussions over the years - and for the Revised/1942 game, he came up with the whole VC bouns point system to provide for a timed, tournament game. If I may speak for Greg, he’d be a lot more open to tournament format change ideas from people if they were not so insulting about it. Telling him that he and his tournament are ‘stupid’ for not using optional rules is not a good way to begin a conversation.
If enough people presented logical arguments for change - including saying that they would be much more inclined to actually come to the events and play - believe me, Greg will look at that. He wants nothing more than to grow the tournaments and get as many people there as possible - of all skill levels. To suggest that he is somehow driven by WotC or has some other reason for what he does (it’s not like he makes a living off this) is kinda silly.
MM
No, NO games are fun, just give axis a 7 bid or something if it is aa50 1941. No bid for 42.
No bid for global, japan is harder to deal with. Russia and London harder to capture. evens out.
Read my posts on page 3 and 4 on this thread.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27842.30
@Scarapis:
By the Way i’m curious if any of these arbitary rules are in the Official game rulebook or even errata put out by WotC cause I have found none regarding said rules, and to be honest I would be a bit miffed if I went to a game con to play a game along the current rules and find out some organiser decided to throw in some rules he made up for fun.
These are NOT arbitrary rules. They are rules created to be able to play the OTB AA games in a tournament setting. Larry has agreed to most of these rules and in some cases written portions of them. SO, I am not sure I understand what is there not to understand and what is so arbitrary about this…?
The only thing I wonder at, is why smorey seems so hostile?
+1
jim,
Why you ask, because, I am the one taking the brunt of the criticizm for the FTF tournament play at GEN CON and Origins.
And outside of Questioneer, I am not aware that anyone else that is commenting negatively has ever been to an event we put on.
Then for comments to be made like we are incompetent and we have no idea how to play AA, gets to you.
And not to mention, these guys are great at pushing ones buttons. I would call them names, but then they would just accuse me of attacking them first…
I just gets real old fast…
@Scarapis:
By the Way i’m curious if any of these arbitary rules are in the Official game rulebook or even errata put out by WotC cause I have found none regarding said rules, and to be honest I would be a bit miffed if I went to a game con to play a game along the current rules and find out some organiser decided to throw in some rules he made up for fun.
These are NOT arbitrary rules. They are rules created to be able to play the OTB AA games in a tournament setting. Larry has agreed to most of these rules and in some cases written portions of them. SO, I am not sure I understand what is there not to understand and what is so arbitrary about this…?
So lets get this straight, you make up rules along with Larry (why doesn’t he do an errata for Hasbro/WotC/AH to put out?), and yet never checked with said companies to seek approval for said rules used in an official game environment, its one thing if you were just some people getting together and playing a game, but you represent the game itself and it behooves you to abide by the game rules or any other sanctioned rules supplied by them would it not? or do you not represent them, since sorry if your were in one of my teams, you would be terminated for failure to comply with the company guidelines.
Casual players are idiots…
Perhaps you should pull your head out of the sand :-) and realize that we all play face to face, with Gar being one of the most hard core out of the lot as he flew across Canada to play a bunch of us at the FMG convention. I drove 10 hours from southern New England to be there, but I suppose because i’m on a post board I must automatically be some sort of shut in right? cause that’s not stupid assumption or anything. These forums are where we come to share our experiences with the game and impart some our insight with each other, so you can trumpet that you’re all about what the players want, but its pretty obvious you only represent WotC interests.
See this is exactly what I am talking about jim. Clyde Calling people idiots when the only idiot is probably the one that wrote that. Then to call Gar hardcore, do you even know what hardcore even means…?
And I don’t only have the interest of WotC here. I have only the interest of those that attend and want to play AA.
We are talking about just trying to establish an means by which ANYONE, “idiots” and all can come and play AA ftf in a great setting. If you are a “Hardcore” player, come have at it but don’t take your frustrations out on the ones that might be the ones that beat you in the end?
@Scarapis:
@Scarapis:
By the Way i’m curious if any of these arbitary rules are in the Official game rulebook or even errata put out by WotC cause I have found none regarding said rules, and to be honest I would be a bit miffed if I went to a game con to play a game along the current rules and find out some organiser decided to throw in some rules he made up for fun.
These are NOT arbitrary rules.� They are rules created to be able to play the OTB AA games in a tournament setting.� Larry has agreed to most of these rules and in some cases written portions of them.� SO, I am not sure I understand what is there not to understand and what is so arbitrary about this…?
So lets get this straight, you make up rules along with Larry (why doesn’t he do an errata for Hasbro/WotC/AH to put out?), and yet never checked with said companies to seek approval for said rules used in an official game environment, its one thing if you were just some people getting together and playing a game, but you represent the game itself and it behooves you to abide by the game rules or any other sanctioned rules supplied by them would it not? or do you not represent them, since sorry if your were in one of my teams, you would be terminated for failure to comply with the company guidelines.
And we do…That is our point. We take the rules, clarify what is in print, select whether or not we play with he OPTIONAL rules, then add time to the game and make sure everyone is playing under the same system.
Larry really doesn’t want to have anything to do with this. Yes, he helps me when I ask. Nor does WotC. That is why they leave it up to me…Never until this year have we had a problem. Once G40 surfaced I went Larry for help and he suggested I go to Questioneer (because he does know what he is talking about when it comes to G40) and many online gamers infiltrated the new rules for the game, is when we started having problems, difference of opinions, etc.
I would love to see Gar come and run any event where he is getting players from all over the world, come in and try and play each individual game by its own rules set. How is the heck would you determine a winner? He would be laugh at or yelling at, one of the two…
@Cow:
No, NO games are fun, just give axis a 7 bid or something if it is aa50 1941. No bid for 42.
No bid for global, japan is harder to deal with. Russia and London harder to capture. evens out.
Cow, but the bid helps to determine who plays what side without having to just roll a dice. It give the players something to shoot for when determining what side they would rather play…
@Cow:
No, NO games are fun, just give axis a 7 bid or something if it is aa50 1941. No bid for 42.
No bid for global, japan is harder to deal with. Russia and London harder to capture. evens out.
Cow, but the bid helps to determine who plays what side without having to just roll a dice. It give the players something to shoot for when determining what side they would rather play…
now this is one thing that always gets me, is you have to bid to play who you wish ? why not draw lots and do it that way, me personally I don’t care who I play i’ve played the Russians even and still did well with them, the true strategy player is the one who wins with what he has, not what he wants.
Scarapis,
but you represent the game itself and it behooves you to abide by the game rules or any other sanctioned rules supplied by them would it not? or do you not represent them, since sorry if your were in one of my teams, you would be terminated for failure to comply with the company guidelines.
Seriously dude, what part of OPTIONAL RULES do you not get? WotC and Larry Harris have blessed what Greg has produced. If you don’t like the format of the tournament because it does NOT make use of optional rules - that is cool - it really is. But don’t sit there and accuse people of somehow violating laws or some other corporate ‘code’ when you don’t have the first clue what you are talking about.
WotC is damn happy to have Greg do what he does - cause goodness knows no one else has stepped up to take over his duties.
MM
Scarapis,
but you represent the game itself and it behooves you to abide by the game rules or any other sanctioned rules supplied by them would it not? or do you not represent them, since sorry if your were in one of my teams, you would be terminated for failure to comply with the company guidelines.
Seriously dude, what part of OPTIONAL RULES do you not get? WotC and Larry Harris have blessed what Greg has produced. If you don’t like the format of the tournament because it does NOT make use of optional rules - that is cool - it really is. But don’t sit there and accuse people of somehow violating laws or some other corporate ‘code’ when you don’t have the first clue what you are talking about.
WotC is damn happy to have Greg do what he does - cause goodness knows no one else has stepped up to take over his duties.
MM
You dare, you have no clue who I am, but I sure know a PR disaster when I see one and Smo is quickly headed there, not only has he brought problems on here, but he has even brought this discussion up on other boards, do you honestly think he is secure in his job and that the company is happy with his work? do you wish to put it to the test, cause I can sure oblige you with that, not too mention WotC is oblivious to his rule changes and one thing I know is they are stickler for rules and sticklers for making sure they are enforced, furthermore its not like he only removed the optional rules, but he added new rules of his own design, so before you go getting on your high horse better make sure you have a leg to stand on, as it goes, I only got into this convo because I thought it was disgraceful for a couple of newbie members here to insult several seasoned members, and that is also one thing WotC does not tolerate either since it gives them a bad image.
Wow…just wow…OK, it would appear as though we have gone as far as we can…I’ll go my way, you can go yours.
MM
This thread has become a Greg bashing fest for no reason. Scarapis, even if Greg’s team were creasting radical rule changes, wotc would not give 2 flippin S!@#s what kinda of tournament rules greg or whomever he works with at gencon. They are trying to appeal to new people as well as seasoned ones. Frankly, I bet wotc is happy to see greg help to expand the community. More players = more sold games = more profits.
Not once has he or mm said anything truely hostile against the the online community in this thread, so I have no idea where people are getting (why is smor so hostile?). Things were all normal untill some people started bashing the people who were organizing the tournaments for talkign about having a different ruleset from what is played online. Why does everybody have to do things YOUR way then? (directed at people complaining about the tournament rules)
