Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

If it means I can save money!  If it means you don’t get penalyzed for playing the game the way it’s always been played.  If it means that the little guy will get a chance at technology.  You know, the three things we demanded when we started technology discussions?

But… but…saving is bad!

[Young Grasshopper]

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

[Jennifer]

@Young:

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

It is that way, Grasshopper.

Currently:
Your turn…
Take whatever cash you have (saved + collected) and find out how many free dice you have.
Take whatever dice you purchased during your purchase units phase and add it to your free dice.
Your technologies, if found, take effect now - just before your opponent’s turn.

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

If russia is so desperate that they want to blow 6 IPC’s to prevent one die from Germany, I don’t see why that’s a problem.

The little guy’s extra IPC or two that they would save would NOT move them into the next level  at least as often as it would allow them to move in. Any threshold boundary is going to be a little arbitrary, regardless of whose system is in effect. You are overstating the effect that 1-2 IPC would have, especially since your thresholds are so huge. Sure, 1 IPC could move you from 19 to 20 (or whatever the threshold is) and get you a die, but it could move you from 20-21, 21-22, 22-23…48-49 without changing a thing.

Maybe Russia sees that the only technology left would give Germany a significant advantage that they dont have now, so they blitz a tank to drop Germany from 2 Dice to 1 Die and prevent 17% chance of Germany getting it.

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

Quit saying that since a player is not REWARDED for saving IPC, that that means they are being PENALIZED. It’s unfair. I have already gave reasons why income is better than cash, so has jimmy. Read back.

You are MAJOR LEAGUE penalyzed for saving!  I already proved this!

A)  You lose units on the board
B)  You lose position on the board
C)  You lose potential income on the board
D,)  You lose threat on your opponent on the board
E)  You gain threat against you on the board.

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

[JimmyHat]

@JimmyHat:

1. CoH can be adjusted by the player, by saving ipcs.  This cannot be disrupted by your opponents.
2. CoH adds another reward to the nation that captures a captial besides the large ipc infusion.
3. CoH rewards sloppy play and foolish land grabs.
4. CoH doesn’t provide an incentive for all nations to defend the front over defense in depth.  Look especially at France here, but really everywhere.

Yeah here are those amended reasons.  Have a crack at those Jen, I can provide clarity if needed.

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

I agree, that’s not to say people won’t do it.  People will be more likely to save a few ipcs however if it means getting another free die roll next round. (going by CoH)

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

Where in post 1 does it say that it happens at the end of the turn?

In the rule.  If you are not going to read the rules, then maybe you shouldnt be participating.

Right below the chart, it states that all technologies are applied at the end of your turn.  There are no surprise “gotchas, I have LRA now” situations.  If that’s the basis for your argument, then we’ve invalidated it and can now proceed.

[Jennifer]

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

I agree, that’s not to say people won’t do it.  People will be more likely to save a few ipcs however if it means getting another free die roll next round. (going by CoH)

Then there is no problem.  It’s now everyone against Mantlefan in which case he is out voted and we may put this issue to bed.

[Jennifer]

Oops, sorry, must have hit the lock when I was flying the mouse around…opened…

[JimmyHat]

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

I agree, that’s not to say people won’t do it.  People will be more likely to save a few ipcs however if it means getting another free die roll next round. (going by CoH)

Then there is no problem.  It’s now everyone against Mantlefan in which case he is out voted and we may put this issue to bed.

Like grandpa peepap on Squidbillies, you got me again!

I guess I am confused as to what you two are arguing about, or more accurately the topic switches constantly so its impossible to track.  My problem is with going by CoH over income…for the reasons listed.  I also think you should be able to purchase 1 extra die if you desire instead of having to pay for 4 as a minimum, because then perhaps minor nations have a shot.

[JimmyHat]

Also this whole tech structure puts the corn cob to the minor powers.  Guess it might only be best in 2v2 games or less.

[JimmyHat]

Jenn will probably log on tomorrow and answer some other question besides looking at my reason why CoH is a bad idea.  That would take too much thinking.

[Young Grasshopper]

I’m tiered and I am hosting an A&A game in the morning, I will post my suggestions on R&D based on all the ideas I like in this thread, tomorrow night.

[Jennifer]

Okay, I explained both rules to my 9 year old son.  Grasshopper and others have said they prefer simpler over complicated (I think Jimmy did too in the Neutrals thread) and this seemed like the best possible test.  A little background, he learned how to play classic a couple of months ago and, given he only has like 8 weeks experience, and that only 1 game a weekend (or we’d NEVER get anything done!) he has a pretty good understanding of the game.

I set the board down in front of him (the one for income) and I placed the American marker down on 60 IPC.  I handed him 87 IPC and said:  “You saved 7 IPC from last round.” (He immediately said “but Mom!  That’s stupid, why would you save 7 IPC!  I could get 2 Infantry for 7 IPC!”  I told him that maybe he was holding out for a submarine or transport and he took that as a valid reason.)  “So you saved 7 IPC, now you collected 60 IPC because that’s where your token is on the board.” (okay…) The tough part was explaining national objectives, I told them there were these special territories on the board that were worth nothing to everyone except special countries - like wild cards.  “Now you have 20 IPC in bonus income.”  We’re all good with that.

I told him for every 40 IPC he had he got to roll a free technology die. (He loves technology, I introduced it a couple of weeks ago and he’s blown more cash on that then on anything else except Battleships!).  Then I tried to tell him - no wait, you can’t use those 27 IPC because they’re special.  Swear to the internet gods he said, and I quote “No they are NOT, they are just like these over there!” and he pointed to the other 60 IPC.

Imagine explaining that over, and over, and over, AND OVER to hundreds of internet users over the next two years.  The “only these special IPC” rule submitted by Mantlefan and not really supported by anyone else - at least no one else seems to be able to really understand what he’s trying to say - and no, I don’t think he does either - is SO COMPLICATED as to render the entire system useless.  “Why cant I just use all my money?”  Simple, eloquent - easy.

Whatever money you have is the money you have.  Even a 9 year old figured that out.  We, as adults, are trying to make something “simpler” by making it WAY more complicated!

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

YG says
@Young:

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

You say
@Cmdr:

It is that way, Grasshopper.

Currently:
Your turn…
Take whatever cash you have (saved + collected) and find out how many free dice you have.
Take whatever dice you purchased during your purchase units phase and add it to your free dice.
Your technologies, if found, take effect now - just before your opponent’s turn

Where does it say in post 1 that the R&D Phase is at the end? YG says it should be moved, you say it already is, but I don’t see it anywhere. Please quote the portion of the rule that says that. I have read it 10 times and still can’t find it.

@Cmdr:

@mantlefan:

Where in post 1 does it say that it happens at the end of the turn?

In the rule.  If you are not going to read the rules, then maybe you shouldnt be participating.

Right below the chart, it states that all technologies are applied at the end of your turn.  There are no surprise “gotchas, I have LRA now” situations.  If that’s the basis for your argument, then we’ve invalidated it and can now proceed.

See!  I knew you were not even reading the rules!  If you were, you’d have seen the “finallized” rule as listed.  (It’s in the next post.)  You were probably skipping around in pages and were erroneiously told that page 1 was the final rule - that was the starting point, the rule that was voted into existence with the condition it be ironed out in discussion!  There you go, as you can plainly see, it’s already moved to the end of the turn sequence. (It was moved in one of the first few pages, just not codified.  The point was raised of ambush technologies, and was later declared by consensus that it be moved to the end before being applied to give everyone time to adjust their position.)

[Jennifer]

@Cmdr:

Research and Develop New Technologies Phase

**A nation is permitted to conduct research and develop new weapons provided they are at war and control their own capitols.  China and France may never conduct research of develop weapons, under any circumstances.

Each nation may have free dice, purchased dice or both free and purchased dice given their position on the board and their willingness to purchase dice.

Free dice are determined by the following chart:**

• $10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll

• $50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls

• $90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls

• $120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls

• $150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls

• $225 + IPC = 6 Rolls

**Nations may purchase any number of extra dice at $15 IPC per die, however.  A roll of six on a six-sided die represents a successful breakthrough, all failures are lost and there are no “technology tokens.”  No nation may develop more than one weapon system per round regardless how many sixes are rolled on the die.

The following represents the new technology list, the previous lists are discarded.**

Research and Development Chart

Your artillery pieces now support up to two attacking infantry.  Each infantry paired with the artillery, and the artillery piece hits on a 2 or less in combat.

Mechanized Infantry may now blitz in combat, per armored unit rules, they may also be paired with an artillery to attack at 3 or less.

Your fighters attack at a 4 or less, defend at a 5 or less and intercept bombing raids at a 2 or less.

Your fighters and tactical bombers may now move 6 spaces (7 if paired with an airbase.)  Your strategic bombers may now move 8 spaces (9 if paired with an airbase).

Your strategic bombers may now drop up to two regular infantry units (defined as not mechanized infantry) provided the bomber has a legal landing zone after combat is finished.  Bombers may not drop infantry in non-combat movements and both the bomber and the infantry units must attack the same territory together.

Your bombers may now fire two dice, each one hits at a 4 or less.

Your industrial complexes are cheaper to build and repair twice as fast. Major complexes now cost 24 IPC and upgrading from a minor complex to a major complex now costs 12 IPC.  Standard placement restrictions apply.  Each IPC applied to damage on your complexes now repairs two damage markers.  This effect does not apply to Airbases and Naval Bases.

_You receive extra income due to sales of warbonds. Roll 2 six sided dice, take the die with the higher number, add two to the value and that is the amount collected in addition to any other source of income you are entitled to receive.   _5) Improved Naval Bases (Combine the following):

• Improved Warships
  ** Battleships now contain an Anti-Aircraft Gun.  For each defending battleship, you may now fire at up to 3 attacking aircraft during opening fire.
  ** Submarines now cost 5.
  ** Aircraft Carriers may now recover fighters when damaged.
  ** Cruisers now cost 9 IPC, move 3 spaces (regardless of if there is a naval base to launch from or not.)
  ** Destroyers may now shore bombard at 2 or less.
  ** Transports may now carry and two ground units, regardless of type.

6. Improved Airbases

• Radar Your land based anti-aircraft guns (including both moveable guns as well as guns affixed to facilities) now hit on a 2 or less in opening fire.
• Rockets Each of the airbases your nation controls may fire one rocket at an enemy facility or base within 4 spaces of the airbase that is firing the rocket.  Only one rocket per facility or base may be launched.

**Once you have achieved a scientific breakthrough you cannot receive it again.  Should you achieve another breakthrough that you already have earned, reroll your success until you achieve a new technology.

Nations that have all six technologies cannot roll more research dice - neither the free dice, nor the purchased dice.  ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE APPLIED AT THE END OF YOUR TURN (emphasis added for those who did not find it before.)**

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The following are sanctioned optional rules.  These rules are optional, you do not have to incorporate them if you do not want too!

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The Research and Development Phase is no longer an optional rule.  Instead, players are allowed to choose not to use Research and Development as an official house rule.

Players may also choose to use the optional rule of technology tokens - as per Anniversary rules.

Players may also choose to use the 4:2 rule for purchased dice per the AARe and AA50e rules.__

[Young Grasshopper]

I’ve seen this movie before, and the ending sucks. You two need to get a grip, or there’s going to be an echo in here.

[JimmyHat]

@mantlefan:

Great. Now you’ve unilaterally determined what the final rule is. You admit it wasn’t codified, but then say it’s the final rule. So much for democracy.

She does that, don’t worry about it.

On your scenario with your child.

1: why are NO’s not included?  
2: How is counting your money simpler than looking at your income token and then adding the NO’s you hold?

In the example, 27ipcs aren’t special, 7 are: because they were saved from the previous round.  Still…its irrelevant because how many ipcs you hold doesn’t matter…we’re looking at your income token.

[Jennifer]

Let me discuss some of the finer points of the rule.

1)  The Free Dice Chart is there to reward countries for existing, that is why you get 1 die for pretty much not being captured.  If you cannot qualify for that one die, you are probably about to be captured, so you won’t be too worried about technology (At least the imaginary people living in your country) as you are probably too busy packing all your belongings and becoming Refugees anyway!

2)  From there the price chart increases SIGNIFICANTLY.  50 - 89 IPC for 2 rolls is about where Japan, Germany and the United States are going to be for most of the game, everyone else will be at 1 roll per game.  That seems about right, these were the three biggest economies and militaries ON THE GAME BOARD for most of the time Global has been out and played.  It is only appropriate that the United States, Germany and Japan have more resources to throw away on technologies than, for instance, Italy or Australia.

3. France and China are barred for two reasons.  France is barred because it usually never has its capitol anyway, on the off chance it does get it’s capitol, it is unrealistic to assume they immediately start hiring scientists.  China is barred because that was the decision made in the vote that created the free dice system.  Not only that, but I believe Larry also barred China from technology in his renditions of the game as well.

4)  The technology tree is really my baby.  What I did here was to take some of the technologies usually looked down on (War Bonds, Rockets, Radar) and combine them with the ones everyone seems to drool over (Long Range Aircraft, Heavy Bombers).  The idea was to match them in a realistic fashion and in a way that a technology perceived as stronger off set the technology perceived as weaker.  Then some tweaks were added in, some originally, some from the discussion thread.  For instance, Battleships getting AA Gun was from the thread - it was originally 3 hit battleships.  War Bonds being best of 2 dice +2 was an original submission and was designed to offset SBR damage.  That was the motivation behind the technologies in the way they were combined.  Lastly the reason it was combined into one chart was two fold: A)  It was plain easier to add two technologies together for all 12 technologies and reduce the chart to six options.  and B)  we only have six sided dice. (Fine, you and I might have 30 sided dice, 8 sided, whatever.  Joe Schmuck who just bought the game and never played RPGs probably only has 6 sided dice to be found anywhere on his block, let alone his house.)  That pretty much locked us into 6 technologies, or 2 trees and I wanted to avoid having people who already only had a 3% chance get dropped to less than half of that.

5)  The turn order was changed REALLY early.  The idea was to negate “ambushes” ala Axis and Allies Revised - Out of the Box rules where LRA on Germany 1 became an “I win” button.  So we applied the same solution that Larry Harris applied for AAR, we moved the application of technologies to the end of the round.  Since that was moved, and since it was voted on to have free dice based on what cash you had, it only made sense to have the actual dice rolls at the end too.  So basically, you buy your units and your technology dice during purchase units and after you collect your income, you determine how many total dice you have to throw.

6)  So essentially, I took all of what was said and agreed upon, made sure it did not violate what was voted on (at the time, none did - only when the you only count certain income complaint was issued did we have a contradiction between the two) and put it in one coherent post.  Later I expounded upon what exactly each technology said (instead of a brief description like LRA means your figs, tacs and strats get +2 range - which works for us, but not for those unfamiliar with our terminology.)