Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

[special forces]

@mantlefan:

@special:

I’m very much against the idea of free tech rolls for the rich.  (or for anyone for that matter. You want some, you pay for it)
Even a big nation has to pay to do research. Research costs a lot of money.

And the result will still be translated depending on a nation’s income.
If you’re a poor country and you have jet fighters, you can’t produce many of them.

(i must admit that i’m not a tech fan to begin with)

It’s not just being “rich.” It’s having the industrial capacity to support a research enterprise. The more industrial capacity you have overall, the more ability in general you have to research.

That’s why I like basing the cost of dice on IC’s rather than IPCs, but I would be OK with it being based on IPC’s if that is based on income score and not just cash on hand.

I understand your point about having the capacity. How about a minimal income (some kind of treshold) to get to be allowed to buy tech?

edit: if this has been said before i apologize, i confess i didn’t read every post in the topic…)

[Jennifer]

How about we compromise and say NO income does not count?

[Jennifer]

Guys, remember, under the current system you need 50 IPC to get 2 tech dice!  Australia, India and Italy are NOT going to be saving up that much, but they will qualify for one tech die even without having to save up for it.

Now, I’m willing to conceed the NO cash as it is not actual land holdings, in exchange for being able to save my 1-3 IPC and use it in my tally (which is less than 10% of what you need for a second die roll, mind you.)

[JimmyHat]

@Young:

I’m saying this right now for the record…… if Delta+1 becomes a boxing ring for Cmdr Jennifer and Mantlefan… I will personally delete and dump every Delta thread I have created in this forum.

Bah, no punches have been thrown.  We need more eyes on this, everyone is invited!

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

Guys, remember, under the current system you need 50 IPC to get 2 tech dice!  Australia, India and Italy are NOT going to be saving up that much, but they will qualify for one tech die even without having to save up for it.

Well, India doesn’t really matter in this case since they benefit from UK’s tech.

Edit: by the way, one time we tried (in Anniversary) to allow a nation to buy tech for an Allied force (so in Global this would mean that USA (once in the war and therefor allied) can buy tech tokens for (for ex) Anzac. Or Germany buying tech for Japan. No idea if it would be interesting for Global, though.

[JimmyHat]

I think you missed the option to have your free rolls determinted by Income that you hold at the beginning of your turn.

Also what about making this tech activate at the end of your round, thereby getting rid of the ‘heavy bmbs + LRA’ I WIN aspect.

[Jennifer]

I think that is option number 1 or number 2, Jimmy.

I am not completely certain, but I don’t think you can get any technology and turn it into an instant win on this massive a board.  If you can think of an example, I’m willing to hear it and rethink my position accordingly.  (LRA was “I win” for Revised if it happened immediately, I don’t think it matters as much in 1940.  But I’m not looking too hard at the Russian border, which is where it will probably occur.)

[Young Grasshopper]

Here’s my 2 cents……

Research & Development (Version #5)

I originally suggested that nations receive free tech rolls at the beginning of their turn in order to get technology into our games, because optional or not, players just weren’t buying rolls.

My original thought in the house rules forum way back before Delta, was every power receives 1 free roll during the R&D phase (no purchasing), but there are more powers for the allies than the axis, and of course China can’t do squat with most technologies.

In light of this concern I suggest the following:

1. Nations that are without a capital may not make research rolls (free or purchased).

This eliminates China and France from rolling which cuts down the extra amount of dice that the allies receive over the axis, and I would even go so far as taking away all technologies gained if you lose your capital.

The next concern is that some people love their research rolls so much, that getting 1 free roll just ain’t enough. they need multiple free dice and the opportunity to purchase them if they wish. In light of this we created a chart for an amount of free dice per nation based on income, however, that raised the concern that the rich were getting richer and the poor got nothing. Here is my new free roll chart suggestion.

$0-9= 0 roll
$10-39 = 1 roll
$40-80 = 2 rolls
$80+ = 3 rolls

Mantefan is right, we can’t have people saving money and leaving units off the board for a far fetched hope of secret weapons. It will prevent aggressiveness and put to much attention on R&D, which IMO should be an opening act for the big show, and not some nude streaker trying to steal the show. So, I suggest that……

2. The Research & Development phase is now the last phase in the turn sequence.

1. Facility and Capital Ship Repairs
2. Purchase new units
3. Combat movements
4. Resolve combat
5. Non-combat movements
6. Place new units
7. Collect income
8. Purchase and/or roll free Research & Development dice.

You may say “what if we want to base our purchases on, what tech we might get” well I think thats silly and you should wait until the next round, besides after the Americans split the atom, they still needed time to build the bomb and test it.

**3. The income eligible for free R&D dice will be calculated by the amount earned on the income tracking chart, plus the amount earned for NOs (not cash held back from the purchase new units phase).

4. Players may use cash held back from their purchase new units phase, plus money from their collect income phase in order to purchase additional Research dice at $10 each. However, only one technology can be won during each R&D phase regardless of how many 6s are rolled during research.**

Sorry Jen, but I think we should keep the hairy naked streaker off the field.

I have always thought it silly to have scientists working on a whatever, like when you roll and get a technology your nation may be stuck with something they can’t use…… well why were the scientists working on a useless tech to begin with.

5. My suggestion is, we create 10 technologies and number them 1-10 on a chart. If a nation wins a technology, they may choose 6 of the 10 tech choices that they wish to develop. Based on their selection a new 1-6 chart is created (lowest to greatest from the original chart) in which that player will roll a 6 sided die to determine the technology that is won.

I give more power to Jen’s suggestions when making this chart, because it was her chart that originally got voted in Delta. I also liked that she kept true to many of the original tech options and this way we have a few slots to be creative.

OK, I think I’m up to 7 cents now.

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

You know, if India is a seperate and soveriegn nation (as it is actually played) maybe it should not benefit from England’s tech nor should England benefit from India’s technology.  Otherwise, why are we stopping Australia from benefiting?  It’s part of the British Empire/Commonwealth.

Because Anzac has its own playing turn and color units.

Separating India in tech would bring along technical problems, suppose UK has super subs or jet fighters, or any tech that affects units, then how can you distinguish fighters that came from India or from London?

[Jennifer]

What I liked about the “free” chart was that it was prohibitively expensive to save up for more rolls.  If you can barely make the 2 roll threshhold (like Germany and pre-war America) then you are not saving another 40 IPC on top of it to get a 3rd roll next round.

I could see your purchased dice be aimed at a specific technology. (Restore the original idea of 10 IPC per die, but keep the “must by at least 4 dice, but no more than 6 dice” concept.)  Now your scientists are going for something specific, while your average citizens and college campuses might have some “random” breakthrough from your free dice.

Free Dice:  Average Citizen-Scientist, College Campus, undirected research you get free as a gift to help win the war.
Purchased Dice:  Government Sanctioned Research Programs funded by tax dollars/marks/yen aimed at specific technologies that the government feels it needs to win the war.

(SpecFor:  Good point.)

[Jennifer]

Oh, and you can still only get 1 technology a round (from Technology Development phase of your turn until your next Collect Income phase.)

[Jennifer]

Okay, I can buy everything you’re selling except #4.

#4.  In addition to any free dice you may have earned, you may purchase 4, 5 or 6 more dice at the cost of 10 IPC each.

[Jennifer]

6 is a statistical certainty of a success.  4 is the least number that gives you better than 50/50 odds, theoretically.    Also, these three numbers limit what you can invest and what you have to invest if you are to invest at all.  I want it to possible to buy extra dice because I dont like banning an act another player might want, but that does not mean I want it to be easy to do either.

[Jennifer]

@mantlefan:

@Cmdr:

6 is a statistical certainty of a success.  4 is the least number that gives you better than 50/50 odds, theoretically.    Also, these three numbers limit what you can invest and what you have to invest if you are to invest at all.  I want it to possible to buy extra dice because I dont like banning an act another player might want, but that does not mean I want it to be easy to do either.

So are you saying that if you buy 6 you get a tech automatically, and don’t need to roll?

I was going to say that and just apply the old 4:2 rule from AARe and AA50e, but I figured that was too radical for this group what with free dice and purchased dice, etc.  My other idea was to resplit the technologies, free dice would get a weaker technology, purchased dice would get the stronger version, but again, seems to complicated for this group.  Not saying the group cannot handle complicated, I am saying they dont want to handle complicated.

No, you can roll your free dice and your purchased dice together if you get a technology great, otherwise you get nothing.  However, since you do get free dice, you dont NEED purchased dice to get a technology, the trade off for that lack of need is that if you want to buy dice it’s really expensive to do so.

[Young Grasshopper]

@mantlefan:

Deleted old, one here is simpler one that is more what I was thinking, before trying to account for people one or two off from each threshold)
Maybe the shouldn’t be in red since it is not a full tech system yet, but:
Process for Determining The Number of Tech Rolls (method of rolling and techs involved TBD later, baby steps)

1. Check to see if you still own your capital (good idea YG). If yes, then continue to step 2.
2. Add income as determined by the marker on the IPC tracker to the NO income for which you are currently eligible. See where this number falls on chart in step 3.
3. (Numbers below examples, my point now is the framework.)
Between 0 and 19: 0 Rolls
Between 20 and 35: 1 Roll
Between 36-50: 2 Rolls
Between 51- 80: 3 Rolls
Between 81- 100: 4 Rolls
101+: 5 rolls.
4. Add as many dice as you would like by paying 8(or whatever) IPC each.
5. Roll dice (how that is to be done is not my immediate concern)

PS: It’s INCREDIBLY important to count NO income because otherwise the axis (who relys more on NOs than most of the Allies) would be harshly handicapped, as well as would the USA, who probably should be the biggest researcher. If NOs are not allowed we would see USSR and UK with disproportionate amounts of rolls.

I like a lot of what your saying Mantlefan, but like Jen, you’re handing out free rolls like kit kats on halloween, it is unacceptable. At that rate America will have 6 tech by round 6. I strongly suggest, Along with owning your own capital, you must also be at war in order to purchase or get free research rolls.

4 rolls for $80?..… I wanted to include tech in game, not turn the game into tech. Can’t we meet some where between your amounts and mine?

[Jennifer]

Let me try explaining it differently (or what I think is different…)

There has to be an economy of scale.  Getting 1 die for 20 IPC is worse than getting 3 dice for 24 IPC.  So if we allow a person to purchase just one die, we have to make the cost of each die higher to make up for the fact they are getting so many free dice throughout the game.  If we limit you so you can only purchase 4 to 6 dice, then we can reduce the individual cost of each die and make it more economical.

Example 1:  Dice cost 15 IPC each, as was originally discussed.  You can purchase 1 die, 2 dice, etc but that gets prohibitively expensive as you go up, it’s cheaper if you just want 1 die.
Example 2:  Dice cost 8 IPC each, but you have to buy at least 4 dice.  Now the cost is 32 IPC, but you get twice as many dice making this a cheaper solution over all.  Meanwhile, you keep the cost prohibitive while not making it ridiculously hard to get technologies by buying dice to help out.

Keep in mind, purchasing dice to augment your freebies is a luxury, like getting a Lexus instead of a Honda, it should also cost more!

[Jennifer]

Bottom, page 4:  Added the condition that countries be at war to research technologies. (owning your capitol was already part of the rule.)

[Young Grasshopper]

@Cmdr:

Let me try explaining it differently (or what I think is different…)

There has to be an economy of scale.  Getting 1 die for 20 IPC is worse than getting 3 dice for 24 IPC.  So if we allow a person to purchase just one die, we have to make the cost of each die higher to make up for the fact they are getting so many free dice throughout the game.  If we limit you so you can only purchase 4 to 6 dice, then we can reduce the individual cost of each die and make it more economical.

Example 1:  Dice cost 15 IPC each, as was originally discussed.  You can purchase 1 die, 2 dice, etc but that gets prohibitively expensive as you go up, it’s cheaper if you just want 1 die.
Example 2:  Dice cost 8 IPC each, but you have to buy at least 4 dice.  Now the cost is 32 IPC, but you get twice as many dice making this a cheaper solution over all.  Meanwhile, you keep the cost prohibitive while not making it ridiculously hard to get technologies by buying dice to help out.

Keep in mind, purchasing dice to augment your freebies is a luxury, like getting a Lexus instead of a Honda, it should also cost more!

our hands are not tied that way, we can make the scale any amount we wish, because we are trying to adapt it to an all ready existing income formula.

[Jennifer]

It’s an example, Grasshopper.  Just to demonstrate the fundamental theorem.

[Young Grasshopper]

@Young:

Here’s my 2 cents……

Research & Development (Version #5)

I originally suggested that nations receive free tech rolls at the beginning of their turn in order to get technology into our games, because optional or not, players just weren’t buying rolls.

My original thought in the house rules forum way back before Delta, was every power receives 1 free roll during the R&D phase (no purchasing), but there are more powers for the allies than the axis, and of course China can’t do squat with most technologies.

In light of this concern I suggest the following:

1. Nations that are without a capital may not make research rolls (free or purchased).

This eliminates China and France from rolling which cuts down the extra amount of dice that the allies receive over the axis, and I would even go so far as taking away all technologies gained if you lose your capital.

The next concern is that some people love their research rolls so much, that getting 1 free roll just ain’t enough. they need multiple free dice and the opportunity to purchase them if they wish. In light of this we created a chart for an amount of free dice per nation based on income, however, that raised the concern that the rich were getting richer and the poor got nothing. Here is my new free roll chart suggestion.

$0-9= 0 roll
$10-39 = 1 roll
$40-80 = 2 rolls
$80+ = 3 rolls

Mantefan is right, we can’t have people saving money and leaving units off the board for a far fetched hope of secret weapons. It will prevent aggressiveness and put to much attention on R&D, which IMO should be an opening act for the big show, and not some nude streaker trying to steal the show. So, I suggest that……

2. The Research & Development phase is now the last phase in the turn sequence.

1. Facility and Capital Ship Repairs
2. Purchase new units
3. Combat movements
4. Resolve combat
5. Non-combat movements
6. Place new units
7. Collect income
8. Purchase and/or roll free Research & Development dice.

You may say “what if we want to base our purchases on, what tech we might get” well I think thats silly and you should wait until the next round, besides after the Americans split the atom, they still needed time to build the bomb and test it.

**3. The income eligible for free R&D dice will be calculated by the amount earned on the income tracking chart, plus the amount earned for NOs (not cash held back from the purchase new units phase).

4. Players may use cash held back from their purchase new units phase, plus money from their collect income phase in order to purchase additional Research dice at $10 each. However, only one technology can be won during each R&D phase regardless of how many 6s are rolled during research.**

Sorry Jen, but I think we should keep the hairy naked streaker off the field.

I have always thought it silly to have scientists working on a whatever, like when you roll and get a technology your nation may be stuck with something they can’t use…… well why were the scientists working on a useless tech to begin with.

5. My suggestion is, we create 10 technologies and number them 1-10 on a chart. If a nation wins a technology, they may choose 6 of the 10 tech choices that they wish to develop. Based on their selection a new 1-6 chart is created (lowest to greatest from the original chart) in which that player will roll a 6 sided die to determine the technology that is won.

I give more power to Jen’s suggestions when making this chart, because it was her chart that originally got voted in Delta. I also liked that she kept true to many of the original tech options and this way we have a few slots to be creative.

OK, I think I’m up to 7 cents now.

Does any one like my idea of choosing 6 tech from a list of 10, and than rolling the development dice?