The updated OPERATION FELIX-HEINRICH includes the revised SetUp of units in Spain that are described in the G40 Strict Neutral Expansion rulebook.
Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1
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Vance, when ever theres enough info and opinions from everyone, could you present one of your great unbiased rule versions for Neutral blocks, if we have some thing solid to discuss, it might move the process. However, if this rule needs longer to flesh out, that’s fine to.
We could start by discussing different aspects of the rule and piece it together that way, or maybe we can identify sticky points that we can’t agree on. I would also like to see updated versions of this rule from wheatbeer and JimmyHat so we can vote on one, and talk about that for a while.
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OK I will do that tomorrow
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@Vance:
OK I will do that tomorrow
No rush, I know you’ve spent a lot of time on UKGIE, so you might be behind in this thread. Take your time to feel out the suggestions in all it’s pages, and give attention to wheatbeer and JimmyHats ideas, who both made the original suggestion.
Maybe a couple of versions are needed, so don’t put pressure on yourself to get something out as early as tommorrow. One thing I have noticed in this thread is how often new thoughts pop up, taking this rule in many different directions.
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yeah we got a big weekend coming up. Just a thought, Turkey as another access point to Europe/asia seems to be a bit contentious. Do we want movement through this corridor, and if so should we increase the penalty to the invader? I personally feel this additional possible front might make things a bit more interesting in the Med, but I need to playtest it to find out. Can’t wait till the fam leaves town and I get a table back.
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I don’t mind movement through this coordidore, but we might want to beef up the local defense forces in Turkey AND Spain (for a similar reason, to punish it for being a new cooridor) so it’s painful.
Turkey: 12 Infantry, 4 Artillery, 4 Armor, 1 AA Gun, 1 Fighter
Spain: 8 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 2 Armor, 1 AA Gun, 1 Tactical BomberYou can still cream them, but now they’re on par with France (which can also get creamed) and a bit more painful to attack. (Not to mention, when they go pro-the enemy it really hurts if they are annexed!)
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Seems like neutral navies and air units are taking a hold, a slippery slope IMO, I am very open minded and will listen to anything, but something tells me that this rule will read very long and complicated.
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@Young:
Seems like neutral navies and air units are taking a hold, a slippery slope IMO, I am very open minded and will listen to anything, but something tells me that this rule will read very long and complicated.
Yea, I am backing off the navies a bit. Cool idea, but rather hard to work into the game I think. I see 100 pages of the same questions being asked over and over again about them:
“Can I get a neutral by moving a destroyer to their navy?” /sigh
Beefing up Turkey and Spain makes sense to me in-so-much as they are major avenues of attack! America would LOVE to pummel Spain into submission, and I almost always do anyway. Same for Germany in Turkey.
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Gotta see some well worded versions before we vote anyways. For the record, I’m involved in Delta to help find balance to an already great game, not to get lost in a jungle of random thoughts, and long winded inventions. Don’t mean to be critical, but this might be one that gets ahead of us.
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@Cmdr:
“Can I get a neutral by moving a destroyer to their navy?” /sigh
This is easy, you would have to declare war to fight those ships, or the territory they are next to because they belong to the block. Only way to get a neutral is by having the other alliance declare war on the block.
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@special:
I haven’t seen much thinking outside the box in chosing neutral blocks.
What if for example S.America is connected to Spain? Language-wise that would make sense, no?
attacking spain turns the european neutrals + S.America
(attacking S.America only turns all of S.America)Wouldn’t we want it so attacking Samerica can turn Spain, in order to keep US honest in the Western Hemisphere?
No, because that way, as USA i can use S.America as an free ticket to attack Spain.
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I think it’s weird that the Axis and Allies can just attack neutrals leaning the other direction, it seems like other people would notice and care.
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Attention everyone.
I have made up 10 variations of the Neutral Blocks rule for you to consider. These were made by blending the most recent proposals posted by Wheatbeer and Young Grasshopper, plus a few other ideas I found scattered throughout this discussion. I couldn’t include everything (e.g. neutral partisans), and I have left out any discussion of setup changes, including neutral air and naval units. Setup changes are an issue separate from the rule and that quagmire should only be entered after playtesting the rule you agree to accept.
The first five versions (1a thru 1e) have any attack on a strict neutral causing other members of the block to join a power on the opposing side. The second five versions (2a thru 2e) have any attack on a strict neutral causing other members of the block to become pro-axis or pro-allied neutral. When deciding which version to endorse, I recommend that you first decide which of those courses you think is best and then look more closely at group 1(a thru e) or group 2(a thru e).
Items b thru e are the same in group 1 and group 2. I started by ordering them in a way that I thought made sense and then removing e, d, c, and b to result in the versions you see below. If anyone would like to suggest another version (e.g. maybe you like version 2e, but you want point c removed), please do so and number it starting with f (i.e. 1f or 2f). That will keep things orderly for final voting.
Without further ado, here they are:
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1a.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1b.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1c.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1d.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.
D. If a single power controls all of the territories within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 1e.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied side chooses. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis side chooses.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.
D. If a single power controls all of the territories within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.
E. Once a power attacks any true neutral territory, they will immediately receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is a one time payout, and the income tracking chart does not get adjusted. If an opposite side takes control of the true neutral away from the other side, they will also receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is also a one time payout, and the territory can keep paying out if the other side (not an ally) continues to reclaim the true neutral.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2a.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2b.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2c.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2d.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.
D. If a single power controls all of the territories within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.
NEUTRAL BLOCKS - Version 2e.
A. An attack by any Axis power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-allies neutral. An attack by any Allied power upon any strict neutral territory within a Neutral Block will result in all strict neutral territories and armies within that Block immediately becoming pro-axis neutral.
An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.
So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects the 5 ipc NO for Swedish iron. If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.
The Neutral Blocks are:1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)B. If the United States attacks any strict neutral territory, trade sanctions are imposed by the League of Nations for this reckless act of aggression against a neutral nation. USA may never again collect the 10IPC national sovereignty NO, even if it controls Western US, Central US and Eastern US.
C. If an axis power attacks Turkey when it is a strict neutral and Caucasus is not axis controlled, the Soviet Union preemptively destroys oil production facilities in Azerbaijan as part of its scorched earth policy. Germany may never again collect the 5IPC Caucasus oil NO, even if it controls Caucasus.
D. If a single power controls all of the territories within a block containing more than one territory, that power will receive a 3IPC National Objective bonus at the Collect Income phase of every turn that the entire block is controlled by that power.
E. Once a power attacks any true neutral territory, they will immediately receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is a one time payout, and the income tracking chart does not get adjusted. If an opposite side takes control of the true neutral away from the other side, they will also receive cash in the amount of the territories IPC value. This is also a one time payout, and the territory can keep paying out if the other side (not an ally) continues to reclaim the true neutral.
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Vance, you are a freakin god! I have set up the poll in this thread and members are now free to vote. I agree with your decision not to include force pools in these versions, I think they would have put this tread in a web of red tape for months. Cheers.
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Thanks! My vote goes to version 1C.
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@Vance:
Thanks! My vote goes to version 1C.
you get 2 votes, and I have noticed that if you don’t use all your votes at once, before you see the results, you can’t use your remaining votes, is that correct?
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In version 1C…. what if Germany attacks a strict neutral and one of the neutral territories within that block is pro axis, does that territory also become allied controled immediatly after germany takes the strict neutral?
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A few things, first we should not list Switz or Sweden or even Mongolia in the ‘blocks’ section if the next line reads, control of an entire block will net you a 3ipc NO. That is confusing.
Secondly none of these options include my proposal for Sweden.
3rd, I think a lot of these ideas need to be playtested. Especially the one that allows the US/Rus to DOW the axis. It might not make a difference at all and it might make a huge difference. Perhaps we take the top 2 or 3 and playtest them? Got to get dice on the board(instead of boots on the ground)
Last a lot of these deal with NO’s which one would assume will be checked over in the final adjustments to Delta.
Vance, if you want to just cut and paste from my post a few pages back I have the rules written out for Mongolia and Sweden.
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@Young:
you get 2 votes, and I have noticed that if you don’t use all your votes at once, before you see the results, you can’t use your remaining votes, is that correct?
Yes that’s how it went last time.
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Vance, if you want to just cut and paste from my post a few pages back I have the rules written out for Mongolia and Sweden.
OK I will add them.
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Play testing and editing of finalized suggestions happens after Delta+1 is finished, and before Delta+2 is finalized.
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