UK Gov't in exile Discussion - Delta 1

[Guest]

Yes, the sea zones stay as they are printed on the board.  South Africa minor IC and any other UK facilities stay as they are.  I also like that it is simple and probably effective.  Play testing will see if it works.

I also assume that the German NO for London stays as it is in alpha 2, but that is a separate issue.

[special forces]

i thought the game was already considered Allied favored, wasn’t it?

I am against it*, but what can a dictator do against darn democracy? :P

But

@Vance:

Play testing will see if it works.

So, ok.

• (“it” being that UK still earns the full amount of money)

[Jennifer]

How long will UK earn the “full” amount of money, SpecFor?

With a minor complex in S. Africa, that’s only 3 units a round.  If England was forward thinking and got another one in C. Persia, that’s still only 6 units a round.  Italy should be able to put 9 units a round on the ground in Egypt.  How long before Canada is choosing which complex to use?  After that, how long until the other one collapses and falls to the Italians?

[Young Grasshopper]

The Brits should be lucky that they are still able to build units after London falls, besides the rule suggestion clearly states that the UK may only mobilize new units in Canada, and as it should be. The government will be 100% focused on liberating London, and should care less about building tanks in South Africa, or building a new complex in Persia. I personaly would like to suggest an addition to the proposed final version. The UK may only collect IPCs from original territories still in their control, and not neutral territories in their control no matter how they were acquired.

[JimmyHat]

I also think it is going to be too much of an advantage for allies, UK may find themselves willing to lose their capital if it only means a 1 round disruption in production and the Axis letting Russia into Europe.  I do like that production can only flow from Canada, preventing UK from doing what Jenn said, seeding the board with IC’s so canada can produce.

A scenario, What will happen if US recaptures Egypt from Italy after London has fallen?

[special forces]

How long will UK earn the “full” amount of money, SpecFor?

With a minor complex in S. Africa, that’s only 3 units a round.  If England was forward thinking and got another one in C. Persia, that’s still only 6 units a round.  Italy should be able to put 9 units a round on the ground in Egypt.  How long before Canada is choosing which complex to use?  After that, how long until the other one collapses and falls to the Italians?

True, less each turn, but still alot more than with normal rules.
If Global 1940 would be much too Axis favored, then yes, i could see this thing as a possible balance-solution.

I consider Sea-lion as a way to take out the UK for several turns, so that Italy would have a chance to beak through in Africa or the Middle-East, so that Germany can breath a few turns in the Atlantic and make enough money to go after Russia, so that Japan won’t get 100% of USA going Pacific. For a while.

Giving the full Gov in Exile takes all these possibilities away from the Axis. Why would they bother to think about a Sea-lion at all? What is the benefit for Germany to still do this? Wouldn’t they just go Barbarossa every time?

@Young:

The Brits should be lucky that they are still able to build units after London falls, besides the rule suggestion clearly states that the UK may only mobilize new units in Canada, and as it should be. The government will be 100% focused on liberating London, and should care less about building tanks in South Africa, or building a new complex in Persia. I personaly would like to suggest an addition to the proposed final version. The UK may only collect IPCs from original territories still in their control, and not neutral territories in their control no matter how they were acquired.

Well, with USA in the war and able to make Canada safe AND liberate London in time, why wouldn’t UK build 3 units per turn in S.AF (if they were allowed to)? Or 3 subs in Canada to send of to the Med?

Also i prefer to keep the option for other Allies to liberate UK soil and make it their own.

[Guest]

Play test it and if it is too pro-allies (which I think it will be), then change it back to just the Canadian territories rather than the whole Europe map.  Remember that the Neutral Blocks thing will be very pro-axis so it might balance out.

[JimmyHat]

@special:

How long will UK earn the “full” amount of money, SpecFor?

With a minor complex in S. Africa, that’s only 3 units a round.  If England was forward thinking and got another one in C. Persia, that’s still only 6 units a round.  Italy should be able to put 9 units a round on the ground in Egypt.  How long before Canada is choosing which complex to use?  After that, how long until the other one collapses and falls to the Italians?

True, less each turn, but still alot more than with normal rules.
If Global 1940 would be much too Axis favored, then yes, i could see this thing as a possible balance-solution.

I consider Sea-lion as a way to take out the UK for several turns, so that Italy would have a chance to beak through in Africa or the Middle-East, so that Germany can breath a few turns in the Atlantic and make enough money to go after Russia, so that Japan won’t get 100% of USA going Pacific. For a while.
Balance is crucial.  In fact I’m bolding that.  It is the thing that is going to provide this game with replayability if each side can proceed down various paths with equal chances of success.  In A2 this is sorta how Sealion went.  It pulled pressure off Japan, gave Italy a chance to get into Africa before US came to take it away.  I liked that dynamic, but am not sold that it won’t work still under this iteration.

Giving the full Gov in Exile takes all these possibilities away from the Axis. Why would they bother to think about a Sea-lion at all? What is the benefit for Germany to still do this? Wouldn’t they just go Barbarossa every time?
I agree that the reasons to take UK have been greatly reduced with this exile rule.  At best you’re disrupting UK production for 1 round, but it will take your German army to do it.  I am guessing that by the time Canada has any ipcs to spend it will be in the 15-18 ipc range.  Hard to say what kind of impact this is going to have, I feel we are going to have to playtest a few versions to see their impact on the late game.

@Young:

The Brits should be lucky that they are still able to build units after London falls, besides the rule suggestion clearly states that the UK may only mobilize new units in Canada, and as it should be. The government will be 100% focused on liberating London, and should care less about building tanks in South Africa, or building a new complex in Persia. I personaly would like to suggest an addition to the proposed final version. The UK may only collect IPCs from original territories still in their control, and not neutral territories in their control no matter how they were acquired.

Well, with USA in the war and able to make Canada safe AND liberate London in time, why wouldn’t UK build 3 units per turn in S.AF (if they were allowed to)? Or 3 subs in Canada to send of to the Med?

Also i prefer to keep the option for other Allies to liberate UK soil and make it their own.
I have to admit this is the biggest area of contention for me too aside from trying to figure out how to ‘remove’ a convoy zone.  Now Rus has no desire to take Persia, UK can do so earlier and collect for it all game.  Also USA usually beefs up their coffers by taking Africa, at least in some games.

[JimmyHat]

@Vance:

Play test it and if it is too pro-allies (which I think it will be), then change it back to just the Canadian territories rather than the whole Europe map.  Remember that the Neutral Blocks thing will be very pro-axis so it might balance out.

Well we don’t want a pro axis neutral blocks do we?  Perhaps adding more units to Turkey will dissuade the axis?  Must playtest:)

[Young Grasshopper]

Just when I think we are close, we fall back down the rabbit hole. Vance has been working his tail off trying to come up with a simple rule that we can all accept, but I’m starting to think that it’s impossible when so many of us have such different views. With all my gaming in my basement and the hours on the computer, especially since Delta+1, I’m tired and my wife is starting to call me obsessed. I am not giving up, but I have expressed my concerns on this rule and I’m going to move on to other issues with Delta. I believe gov. in exile is in good hands with Vance and I would love it if he could organize the polls for all the winning ideas in discussion threads, but after seeing the work involved with trying to finalize this one rule. I wouldn’t blame him one bit if he declined.

[JimmyHat]

Hitler would have had you summarily executed for defeatism!:)

I think Vance has this under control, I’ll go with whatever is voted on to playtest, because it is only through playtesting that we can see if the idea will be valid.

[Young Grasshopper]

I would have been executed for lighting a cigarette…… oh well.

[Guest]

I can do more of these, but I just hope that whoever originally puts forth an idea helps with it because they will have the best idea what they are trying to achieve.  I also hope that everyone continues to have the positive and openminded attitude that you all have shown with this one.  No personal attacks, no childishness, all good!

As for Gov’t in Exile, I would say the next step is obvious.  First, some experienced players should play with the rule as it stands now and see if indeed the Allies win all the time (my own bet is they will).  Next, replay those games but with UK in Exile plus the Neutral Blocks rule. I think those two might balance each other out.  If they don’t, then try limiting UK in exile to earning just the 7 IPCs for Canada and see what happens.  Experimental approach.

[Young Grasshopper]

Thank you Vance, this is great news, you did such a great job in this thread, being fair and diplomatic, it’s nice to know that each discussion thread will get the same treatment. We will all work with you to make your efforts easier.

Respect.

[JimmyHat]

@Young:

Thank you Vance, this is great news, you did such a great job in this thread, being fair and diplomatic, it’s nice to know that each discussion thread will get the same treatment. We will all work with you to make your efforts easier.

Respect.

+1

I think you’re doing great Vance, I also appreciate the various options you have been giving us.  I hope to do the same in the Neutral Blocks thread, which is nearing completion.

[Guest]

Thanks!

[Young Grasshopper]

Vance, Where are we with “UK government in exile”?

[Guest]

See reply #140 above.  Recommend playtesting this version and then possibly consider if UK in exile income should be limited to Canadian territories.

[special forces]

@Young:

Thank you Vance, this is great news, you did such a great job in this thread, being fair and diplomatic, it’s nice to know that each discussion thread will get the same treatment. We will all work with you to make your efforts easier.

Respect.

yeah!

[Young Grasshopper]

ANNOUNCEMENT**

United Kingdom Political Situation

“Government in Exile” - (Delta+1 final version)

Upon the first time London is captured by an Axis power:

1. The British government must exile to Ottawa, Canada.
2. All British IPCs (Europe) must be given to the axis power that now controls London.
3. The United States and Soviet Union must immediately declare war on all axis powers (if not already), and become allies with the United kingdom.

During exile:

1. The UK may collect income from all territories (Europe) that are still under British control.
2. The UK may only mobilize new units from ICs in Canada.

After liberation:

1. The UK government may return to London, and regain all privileges of their previous sovereignty, or choose to stay in Canada until London stabilizes (decision must be made at the end of the UK turn).
2. If London falls a second time while the government is there, they may not exile again, and all income, purchasing, and placement rights are lost until another successful liberation has been achieved.

Issues before Delta+2:

1. Weather or not the UK in exile should continue to collect income from all territories remaining in British control, or just territories from Canada.