Here’s a large post, from this very same page, discussing the very same thing:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36942.0
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And looking at it, you actually made the last post there. I’m confused, and I’ll shut up now.
In which version is Russia stronger against the Axis, A2 or A3?
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How is russia ever strong?
They where strong out of box but now you should be able to push em down easliy.Because many players used Germany to take England on Round 3 or 4, Wrath. That reduced the Germans to a smoldering pile of scrap metal allowing the Russians early victories in Poland, Hungary and Romania which in turn gave them +9 IPC for the territories and +9 IPC for the objectives. If you add a Japanese invasion, in Alpha 2, they also got +12 IPC to spend on units in the front rows against Germany. THat quickly added up and is a major reason why I think Russia should get pummeled early and often.
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Because many players used Germany to take England on Round 3 or 4, Wrath. That reduced the Germans to a smoldering pile of scrap metal allowing the Russians early victories in Poland, Hungary and Romania which in turn gave them +9 IPC for the territories and +9 IPC for the objectives. If you add a Japanese invasion, in Alpha 2, they also got +12 IPC to spend on units in the front rows against Germany. THat quickly added up and is a major reason why I think Russia should get pummeled early and often.
This is a silly remark. The consensus strategy has no impact on the strength of alternative strategies (strategies which I have always argued were better than Sealion anyway, such as my G2 Barbarossa). Russia is not weaker now, they are stronger, mainly because the UK now knows it doesn’t need to turtle the first few rounds and go actively attack instead of passively defend - Russia should have always prepared for Barbarossa. You might be shaking in your boots knowing your opponents will be executing Barbarossa on you, but I’m not. I know the tried and true anti-Barbarossa tactical decisions necessary, and given that UK can now provide some semblance of oomph in the early game now, I believe Russia’s hand is significantly strengthened. Russia gains all of the following:
- Confidence that UK will be assisting them from UK1 on, not waiting until Germany has played their hand on G2 before taking the fight to Germany.
- UK will be much more likely to defend SZ125 to insure Russia gains the +5 NO.
- Japan has to contend with an additional 6 Infantry if they invade Amur.
- Italy loses the Caucusus NO.
- USA and UK have reason to go after France hard due to the American NO.
- AA guns are of use only in defensive posturing. Russia is primarily on defense, therefore the rule will primarily help them. Classic Aristotle logic.
Moreover, it’s quite easy to look back on your comments a couple months ago where you were trumpeting the ‘Sealion above everything’ strategy exclaiming to all who would listen that it’s the only viable strategy Germany has - but nonetheless it’s impossible for Germany to execute in less than 11+ rounds. Why has your tune suddenly changed? The alterations are not in Germany’s direction, so I find it odd. You’re passively admitting that Russia could always have been defeated by Germany/Italy/Japan quite handily before, and therefore your KJF strategy was never truly valid, as I had always argued, because in my experience Russia falls hard without help from UK/USA of some variety (FYI - the trick was a G2 Barbarossa, it made KJF relatively ineffectual since Moscow would have stacks of German, Italian, and Japanese Mechanized Infantry and Tanks rolling over it before America could pivot to the Atlantic).
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Because a couple months back it was Alpha 2 and people had not figured out how to stop Sea Lion yet, so it only made sense.
Now we are in Alpha 3. I see a much different universe than you do, evidentally. In my universe England is castrated being raided to death with no fleet of any significant size. Italians are forging a path to Moscow while the Germans sap Russian strength. Japan is removing valuable IPCs in the east making it much harder for Russia to survive.
The only thing I have not yet determined is if a G3 attack on Russia is superior to a G4 attack. Or if G5 is better for that extra 5 IPCs.
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G2 is and always will be the best. G2 Barbarossa –-> G8 assault on Moscow with ~ 40 INF, 15 TANK, 20 ART, 20 MECH, 20 Aircraft.
Purchases (most conservative IPC amounts possible)
G1: 7 ART
G2: 10 ART, 10 INF
G3: 7 TANK
G4: 10 Mech
G5: 10 Mech
G6: 4 TAC
G7: 3 STR
G8: Defensive builds for D-day and/or offensive to go after CairoItaly also has a good buy plan to assist and keep the supply lines open.
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Yeah Jenn, I agree with Shadow on many things but you want to attack Russia early, not late. That is what made Russia such a beast after Sealion, they had 4 rounds to build and position an army. Attack early if you want to win.
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Yeah Jenn, I agree with Shadow on many things but you want to attack Russia early, not late. That is what made Russia such a beast after Sealion, they had 4 rounds to build and position an army. Attack early if you want to win.
Hmm. I will most certainly try it.
Shadow, you are attacking France I assume? Could you, please, post what you are attacking on Round 1 and with what? So I have some sense of where units are coming from and going too?
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Yeah Jenn, I agree with Shadow on many things but you want to attack Russia early, not late. That is what made Russia such a beast after Sealion, they had 4 rounds to build and position an army. Attack early if you want to win.
Most people who complained about Russia were allowing them 3+ rounds of free purchases and the ability to position units anywhere they desired. Of course Russia is hard to defeat in that circumstance. Hit them hard, early, before they consolidate - pierce holes north and south to prevent the linking of units. Every Russian unit NOT in Moscow on turn 8 is not in the fight. You only need to capture 3 zones to attack Moscow (there are six possible paths - take the road less defended). By G8, USA has had exactly 3 combat movements while at war - only the final round could possibly give them access to put land units into Paris or Cairo - they have had a maximum of two rounds to put land units into Rome. You simply need to delay invasions of those three VCs until Leningrad and Stalingrad are secured (if they aren’t already by Germany or likely Italy).
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Understood. Here are my assumptions, tell me where I am off:
Germany attacks: Yugoslavia, France, W. France, SZ 112, SZ 111, SZ 110 and SZ 106. (or do you pull back your submarines?)
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G1 (Purchase 7 ART)
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2 SUB to Canada
2 SUB to 91
6 INF, 2 ART from Southern Germany to Yugo, 1 INF from Slovakia to Yugo, retreat all to Slovakia after one round of fighting
3 INF, 1 MECH, 1 TANK, 2 ART to Normandy
4 TANK, 4 INF, 1 ART, 3 MECH, 2 TAC, 2 FTR to France
1 BB, 1 CA, 1 FTR, 1 TAC to 112
1 SUB, all other aircraft to 111
I don’t bother attacking 110 - not worth it and they have no DD there.NCM 4 INF to Finland
NCM 1 INF to Bulgaria
NCM 9 INF to PolandG2 (Build 10 ART, 10 INF)
Everything from front attacks Eastern Poland.
Aircraft threaten Britain
NCM everything else to Poland (except token defendersFrom here on in, check the number of zones you need to move to assault Moscow on G8…build accordingly. Once Art/Inf cannot make it, change to Tank/Mech, once they cannot switch to TAC, then on G7 build STR. Move everything into Moscow G8. If Russia turtles and pulls everything into Moscow, you can just capture everything…if they don’t turtle you have enough concentrated might to capture Moscow anyway, and mop up afterwards. Ignore Leningrad.
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Nice. Do you have Italy break the ground and Germany reinforce then? That way Germany loses nothing while Italy loses a few men to Russian pickets?
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@Cmdr:
Nice. Do you have Italy break the ground and Germany reinforce then? That way Germany loses nothing while Italy loses a few men to Russian pickets?
Yeah Italy does the standard can opener actions, and claims all peripheral territory that isn’t a VC. Italy also has to defend Europe along with all German purchases above those allotted to Moscow G8. Italy may or may not take Cairo…this becomes the critical fight if they failed.
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@Cmdr:
Nice. Do you have Italy break the ground and Germany reinforce then? That way Germany loses nothing while Italy loses a few men to Russian pickets?
Yeah Italy does the standard can opener actions, and claims all peripheral territory that isn’t a VC. Italy also has to defend Europe along with all German purchases above those allotted to Moscow G8. Italy may or may not take Cairo…this becomes the critical fight if they failed.
The real blessing of Italy is being able to take land for German planes, allowing the Germans to reinforce heavily. So peripheral territories should be taken by the Germans, while the main drag (E. Poland Belarus or E. Poland N. Ukraine, etc) should be Italian. I agree on the VCs since there are complexes there.
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G2 Barbarossa is the best way to get started with the war on Russia. By waiting until G4 to attack that gives them too much time to build and deploy if you go on G2 they’ll have half as many and they wont be dug in to positions to counter attack
Make sure you get France on G1
It almost happened the other nite….one German tank left to occupy Paris on G1 -
I am contemplating a G3 attack, only because it would give me time to pull the units from France (Mech/Arm) to the Russian front. Also, each round you don’t attack Russia is another round you get 5 IPC. Something to consider. (Consider does not necessarily mean you should or should not agree, just something to think about.)
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@Cmdr:
I am contemplating a G3 attack, only because it would give me time to pull the units from France (Mech/Arm) to the Russian front. Also, each round you don’t attack Russia is another round you get 5 IPC. Something to consider. (Consider does not necessarily mean you should or should not agree, just something to think about.)
You get 5 more IPCs, but Russia gets 13 more INF. Try both and you’ll see the difference (G2 vs. G3). The INF/ART stay in France; the TANK/MECH which will catch up to your INF/ART on the Eastern Front - you don’t need them until Moscow anyway.
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@Cmdr:
I am contemplating a G3 attack, only because it would give me time to pull the units from France (Mech/Arm) to the Russian front. Also, each round you don’t attack Russia is another round you get 5 IPC. Something to consider. (Consider does not necessarily mean you should or should not agree, just something to think about.)
You get 5 more IPCs, but Russia gets 13 more INF. Try both and you’ll see the difference (G2 vs. G3). The INF/ART stay in France; the TANK/MECH which will catch up to your INF/ART on the Eastern Front - you don’t need them until Moscow anyway.
How do yo come to the conclusion of 13 more infantry? I am not saying you are incorrect, I am wondering what your rationale is.
I am thinking of a one round delay, and Japan is not delayed. (Neither is Italy. Only Germany needs to be at peace with Russia to get the 5 IPC.)
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Russia spends 37 IPCs a round, that’s 13 Infantry more than before. Each round Russia adds a wall of bodies to their defense, so the earlier you start to kill them the less there are.
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An invasion by Germany on round 2 will, most likely, take out 2 Russian IPC and those might be liberated. So the net income for Russia is the same, but they are down, perhaps, 2 infantry. Concur?
If you factor in a Japan 2 attack (and why not? Russia no longer gets any benefit from a Japanese attack on Russia, so it pays to hit them as soon as possible) they might be down another 3 IPC in the far east. (Siberia, Amur, Soviet Far East.)
The two combined should reduce Russia to 33-35 IPC which would limit them to less than 12 new infantry units. (I highly doubt a liberation attempt would be carried out on Siberia and Amur, and Soviet Far East in almost every game is out of reach of the Russians. So I am assuming no counter attacks against Japan.)
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Hitting them earlier means getting to and hitting Moscow earlier, which means Moscow has a top limit of 13 less INF than an attack the following round.
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Hitting them earlier means getting to and hitting Moscow earlier, which means Moscow has a top limit of 13 less INF than an attack the following round.
Gotcha.
Assuming the standard attack pattern on Moscow is:
Japan vs Russia
Italy vs Russia
Germany defeat Russia
?Or do you like to keep a bunch of Japanese armor/mech to swing back around and spank China from the rear?
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