Does taking Spain with USA spell doom for the Axis?

[JamesAleman]

I am not sure how much thought goes into a true neutral violation, but consider this:

• Spain first requires the USA to only have one defensive fleet.

• 2 transport fleets of 9 each should permit 18 units a round with money left for a few Destroyers a turn as additional fleet support.

• Spain is next to S. France

• S. France threatens France and N. Italy by turn 6

Basic Assumptions:
When the USA enters the war, Spain is likely to be neutral. S. France and Normandy are likely to be lightly held.

When producing 18 units a turn, Germany and Italy, will need to stop naval and air builds, and will likely build local land units for defense.

By turns 6 or 7 France is available for Liberation to keep the game going if the axis have 8 cities.

From Spain, it is likely going to be easy to liberate S. France and Normandy. In Alpha, that is 2 minor factories that the USA can produce out of.

Long term results of Neutral crush:
Mid game, the axis get Swedish troops (which they may need a transport to reach in order to activate) and Turkish/Saudi Arabian troops(which may be a larger headache). Japan will over time get 6 units from Asian neutrals. USA could by using aircraft and Brazilian infantry conduct a minor campaign in S. America to gain 6 more ipc’s a turn eventually.Thus we see, Germany getting +3 for Sweden, Italy getting plus +4 for Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Japan gaining no additional IPC values versus America eventually getting +7 IPCs for Portugal, Spain, Venezuela, Chile, and Argentina. America is also going to get +5 IPCs for French holdings in Europe, before they seize France. There are 8 other axis units available near S. Africa and India….hard to reach by mid game.

Long term benefits to the USA/allies:
Once N.Italy becomes a kill zone: slide North into France: Italy will not be safe moving into N. Italy as your France stack and S. France (reinforcements) can still smash that zone. Now Germany is holding off the USA without Italian support. From France, you get Holland +3 IPCs and trade W. Germany and N. Italy each round. Eventually you can slide into W. Germany giving you Denmark for keeps later, then if Berlin is too stacked, slide into Southern Germany…all these zones keep pressure on N. Italy and represent a sizable portion of Germany’s IPCs for resistance.

This will likely see both W. Germany and N. Italy being knocked down into minor factories by turn 7 or 8. Italy will still have a large production, but will need additional factories to place out of.

9 infantry and 9 artillery costs the USA 63 IPCs. If they are at 25 IPCs from NO plus 10 ipcs (Portugal,Spain,S.France,Normandy,Brazil) they will have 85 IPCs leaving 22 IPCs to help against Japan each turn or add to the Atlantic navy each turn. Over time, that Atlantic navy will likely slide a force into the Mediterranean. Eventually, the USA could be collecting 91(minus Philippines). A couple of units in N. Africa can give the USA some additional funds if Italy grabbed some French spaces.

From time to time, you may need to pause building land units and respond to axis naval builds that threaten sz91 or 101. Or you may need to pause to help against Japan. If this pressure permits USSR to survive, they should over time be able to rebound and spell defeat for the axis…assuming USA can’t do it alone, which may not be the case.

How to address the Pacific with this plan:
I see USA and USSR both sending aid early into the Pacific. USA with starting assets, USSR with air power, mech/armor and 1st turn production of 3 more mech and 2 planes. India builds navy, and anzac stacks land units. London likely falls by turn 4. With USSR aid, China should still be a factor going into turn 6. Anzac should be able to defend itself if it has not fallen by turn 6. India will be the linchpin.

Other factors that will present over time:
Eventually, Gibraltar will be seized providing you an airbase to protect sz91. When you have Gibraltar, Morocco, Algeria and Normandy, only axis bombers in London/Europe and Italian/German subs from the Mediterranean can assault your transports. This permits your navy to redeploy(using reinforcing DDs to protect 91) either into the Mediterranean to crush Italy’s production or north to Norway and threaten Germany’s navy once Denmark/W. Germany are occupied.

Once W. Germany is held. Sz 113,114,115 navies will be vulnerable to USA air attacks permitting Norway to be ripped from Germany’s grasp maybe. In addition, France will be able to produce by the time you seize W. Germany. This enables USA to be a can opener against Germany for French Mechanized infantry heading towards G.S.Germany and Yugoslavia. They can also just make infantry and help the USA hold. France will be a can opener against Italy when German units are isolated from their front.

If the German’s keep building out of London, it will be hard to take, but they will have less to hold Europe with early on. Eventually, they can stop building in London. I’m not sure if London will be worth the effort to liberate. A few subs placed in sz 109 prevent Germany from benefiting for holding UK other than the +5NO

Edit: One additional point: You will not need to maintain 1 artillery per infantry with the USA, eventually, you will just build 1 artillery per every 2 infantry, dropping your cost down to 60 IPCs (12 inf,6 art).

Any thoughts?
Does this plan have merits, or are there too many negatives I failed to address?
I welcome your feedback.

[ViribusUnitis]

Russia would be crushed long before there would be any real danger for Germany.
If you built fast (expensive) units from the start and then even moved them away from the front, Moscow would fall turn 5. latest turn 6.
With all those additional Infantry  they wouldn’t have a chance!
No good player would ever try sealion if Russia made your opening move.

[JamesAleman]

@ViribusUnitis:

Russia would be crushed long before there would be any real danger for Germany.
If you built fast (expensive) units from the start and then even moved them away from the front, Moscow would fall turn 5. latest turn 6.
With all those additional Infantry  they wouldn’t have a chance!
No good player would ever try sealion if Russia made your opening move.

So, as you see it, London will survive, and Moscow will fall.

With the effort Germany places in Russia, will they be able to hold off the allies in the west? I suspect they won’t.
Can we assume London will be able to grab West Germany, since there is little to no German fleet and your efforts were on fast movers for the Russian front? Maybe not too early, but by turn 6 I would think so by staging in Holland.
Also, lets not forget that USSR see’s Germany’s first build. They also do not DOW against Japan or even move towards/into Asia until turn 2, which is after Germany’s second turn. One could argue, that upon seeing Germany’s intent to abandon sea lion, they could scrap plans to help in Asia….but even still I think I would help Asia, as I would want to draw the German’s deep into Russia, even Moscow so that they cannot return in time to save Berlin. Lets also remember that by turn 2,3,or 4 Germany is not likely to know USA is going to Spain on turn 4.

Germany’s maximum production with W. Germany intact is 20 units in Europe. If W. Germany falls to UK early, then Germany can put a max of 10 units to the USA’s 18 units a turn, without building additional factories. Germany’s IPCs over that threshold would be irrelevant. In fact, it may be possible to deny Germany West Germany by the time Moscow falls. If that is the case, Germany gets 10 units a turn in Europe to USA’s 18 and UK’s 8 units, even France would contribute 3 units a turn. That’s 29 land units to Germany’s 10 and we’ll say Italy’s 10 for the sake of argument.

I would see Berlin falling to the allies 2-4 turns after you seized Moscow. Rome could also be the allies target if Berlin is safe.

I would not want to be the axis under those conditions.

Not mentioned above, the Russia air force (5 units), typically returns to Russia by turn 6 after Asian maneuvers are complete.
Russia gets a minimum of 5 productions after the first turn build, which is likely 60 extra land units combined with the 20+ land units you start the game with. I fail to see Moscow fall by turn 7-8 if all you do is fall back to Moscow.

[JamesAleman]

Side note: I have found 1 method for actually attacking Moscow by turn 5. And that involves not taking France, surprise, Italy’s main effort-forsaking expansion, and Russia being caught unprepared.

Maybe you can find a way to conventionally hit Moscow by turn 6 or 7. But this should require a major effort, leaving less units in the rear and thus exposing your west flank to an intact London.

Realistically, I think Moscow with no Sea Lion can hold out until turn 8 at a minimum. Is this unrealistic?

[ViribusUnitis]

Standard German opening.
By 2 Trans, 1 AC. (sz 112)
Hit sz106, 110 and 112 with subs, fleet and planes.
Conquer Normandy and France with all you got in Holland, W. Germany, and the tanks from Austria.
NCM 3 inf and 3 art from Ger. to W. Ger. With the trans 1 tank from poland and 1 Inf from Denmark to Norway, and the 2 from Norway to Finland. Everything else to the Russian front (Poland)
(You might want to move one of the Austrians to N. Italy, for shipping to Egypt.)
Normally Russia will now pull their units back from the front. (One remaining)

Japan attacks Amur and continues to push as far as possible.

Now Britain has to do everything to prevent a possible sealion. (9 Inf, no Taranto)

Italy lands with one trans in Syria one in Crete (to prevent the gib fighter from sinking the trans). the rest takes Greece with bombardment. NCM one inf from Albania to Bulgaria.
Turn 2. they will activate Iraq. Depending on Britain they might already be able to take Egypt as well with the leftovers from Greece and the two units on Crete. (plus Tobruk units)
Turn 3. they might even build a factory there and start pushing the Russians in Caucasus.

Germany 2. build (67 IPC) build whatever you want. (I like 10 mech, 1 Sub in case you lost one too many…maybe a minor in Romania, research… whatever)
Attack Baltic states with your 11 Inf and 2 tanks, sink the last British Battleship and the Russian one with you fighters
Attack Karelia and Vyborg with the 6 Inf from Finland, the tank from Norway and the 3 inf 3 art in the trans (go round Norway)
NCM all your tanks from France (should be at least 4) to Germany to reinforce with the 10 mech.

Italy moves the 5 inf from Bulgaria to Romania. (can opener with one or two Italian planes round 3)

Round 3 Leningrad falls.
Round 4 Ukraine falls.

[ViribusUnitis]

Dude, I will never again post a tactic. Thats just too exhausting…

[ViribusUnitis]

You don’t even have to take Moscow. if only Moscow stands they are no threat with 3 IPC’s a round.

Italy gets +18 IPC with the middle East and Caucasus, and Germany gets +26, with some TT’s as a buffer.

You see why I think that purchasing any other units than Infantry for the first 2 turns is a mistake?

[JimmyHat]

@ViribusUnitis:

Italy lands with one trans in Syria one in Crete (to prevent the gib fighter from sinking the trans). the rest takes Greece with bombardment.

I sure hope both of these inf are on separate trns.  When a trn unloads that ends its movement, so 1 trn cannot unload into 2 spaces, even in noncom.

[JamesAleman]

@ViribusUnitis:

You don’t even have to take Moscow. if only Moscow stands they are no threat with 3 IPC’s a round.

Italy gets +18 IPC with the middle East and Caucasus, and Germany gets +26, with some TT’s as a buffer.

You see why I think that purchasing any other units than Infantry for the first 2 turns is a mistake?

Thank you for posting your opening as a response to the proposed strategy.
I see why you think it is a mistake. I do not agree however:

I refuse to leave blockers for 1 IPC zones. I would rather the German tanks blitz to within counterattack range, I only place blockers in zones next to Russia when needed later in the game.

I see 10 mechs in Germany turn 2, a large force entering Russia as well. You sank the Russian BB, and yes, Russia will pull back.
By round 3, you capture 1 Russian victory city. You went North, Russia retreated south via Belarus.

You have 10 mechs, and 4 armor plus we’ll say 11 air units able to hit Ukraine on turn 4.
Russia will have 2 Bessarabia , 3 Eastern Poland, 1 inf, 1 art W. Ukraine, 3 inf Ukraine, 1 produced in Ukraine turn 1 (3mech in Volgograd, 2 fighters Russia save 2ipcs), 3 produced turn2, 3 produced turn 4, 2 From Caucasus, 3 from Russia with art, by then for a total of:
21 infantry, 2 artillery, 1 aa gun (from Russia) vs. 10 mechs, 4 armor, 11 planes.
That gives USSR 23 vs 25(14land) a tight fight, you can add 4 more armor, I can add starting units in Leningrad/BalticStates/archangle since Belarus is my standard turn1 move from Baltic and Novgorod/Archangle, which adds 10 more inf and 1 more art. Giving Ukraine a total of:
31 infantry,2 artillery 1 aa gun in the south vs 10 Mech, 8 armor, 11 air: 33vs29.

My turns 2 and 3 productions are stacked in Bryansk(18 units) turn 4 with 9 units on (russia). Germany cannot go both North and South with armor and still get both, yes, you will get them over time. It is possible for you to add Bulgarian infantry to your Ukraine fight on turn 4. Making it 33 vs 33.

As USSR I don’t want to give the Germans a fighting chance (die rolls) to win, so I will likely do this on round 4 thus denying a fight:

Now, USSR on turn 4 could just stage in Byransk with 50 pieces, and make Ukraine and Belarus a kill zone, as your German reinforcements are all likely north (where the transports can stage them). This will prevent Ukraine from producing for the axis…delay a couple of rounds as Germany will try to shift you North by going Archangle->Vologda.

So turn 5 and 6 Germany is likely stalled, by turn 7 and 8 USSR has retreated to Moscow, without London, the game continues.

This assumes a German commitment production wise by turn of:
Turn 1: 10 mech
Turn 2: 6 land units for transports. More for USSR? or Defense? I say you will need more for USSR to crack it.
Turn 3: more land for Russia needed or south front stalls. 3 land built out of North Victory city. And land units to defend Europe.
Turn 4: land units to defend Europe, 3 units North VC Russia front now slated to stall
Turn 5: defense of Europe….deviate from this and yes you might crack USSR but you should lose Berlin.

That is my conclusion: Failure to take London and focus on USSR will see Berlin fall with this allied plan. London must be seized to make a game out of it if I am correct.
I believe it would be wise to trade Moscow for Berlin as the allies with London allied. USA could then leave France and UK to mop up Italians, and focus on Pacific or just finish Italy with some spending in the pacific from the Berlin Plunder.

[Bischoffshof]

Attacking a neutral gives the Axis far too much men… You also neglected to mention Switzerland and I believe Afghanistan would be doable as well…

[Alsch91]

James, Japan will win very quickly with this.

[JamesAleman]

@Alsch91:

James, Japan will win very quickly with this.

I understand your concern about Japan getting 6 victory cities.

This can be prevented using minimal effort with the US as long as USSR participates and India goes Navy. Anzac will survive if Japan does not do a beeline for them. The last two games I participated in I was able to stop Japan without USA builds.

This requires sz 98 navy as well as sz 71 and 72 ships.

The Japanese navy cannot breach the Indian navy at sz 39 without cataclysmic losses.

By turn 3 your force at sz 39 consists of (copied from alpha2 setup sheets):

• Sea Zone 98: 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier w/1 Tac Bomber, 1 Transport

• Sea Zone 71: 1 Destroyer

• Sea Zone 39: 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport

• Sea Zone 37: 1 Battleship

• Sea Zone 72: 1 Destroyer(french)

• Builds: Carrier(turn1)save 1,Carrier and Destroyer (turn2) DOW turn1 plus 1ipc saved

This gives you: (1 DD scratched off as blocker above)
3 carriers, 4 destroyers, 1 battleship, 2 cruisers and 9 air units via scramble(5 Russian,3 UK, 3 Anzac available for selection) 19 units/23hits
7@2,  2@3, 10@4 = 9-11 hits round 1
Japan max force, can hit that with:
3 carriers, 4 destroyers, 2 battleship, 2 cruisers, 2 subs and 6 air units 19 units/24hits
3@0, 6@2, 5@3, 5@4 = 8-10 hits round 1
Best case scenario:
Japan wins barely, has very little to no Navy left, and now the Anzac DD,Ca and Starting US fleet is stronger than them.
Japan is struggling on mainland, their fleet is fully committed and now depleted.
They likely have few of the DEI islands.
This is if they are in position to strike on turn 3.

IF they fail to sink the UK navy turn 3, turn 4 the US and UK fleets meet at one of the DEI islands or australia. That combined fleet is now quite safe defensively and permits island trading and or naval blockaiding of sz 19 or 6….only the whole Jap air force will sink it.

This should buy you plenty of time in my opinion.

[Stalingradski]

In a recent game as the Allies, I positioned myself to take Spain with the US, and Turkey with Britain. This required troops I had been building in Iraq (conquered GB2, IC GB3 combined with Tartanto to slow Italy). I built a Minor IC in Spain, built an airbase, and between Gibraltar and Spain’s airbase could protect a fleet in SZ91 with minimal effort. Turkey bought me Greece and eventually the rest of the Balkan peninsula.

Unfortunately, I was already losing the game, and this was a desparate measure… still, I was able to apply a lot of pressure to France, and quickly, as well as to the underbelly of the Med.

James - I believe there is a valid and acceptable use of Spain/Turkey for the Allies under certain circumstamces, and your idea merits more examination.

[Jennifer]

Turkey can be gotten too from Greece allowing the Germans to quickly zoom into Caucasus and the Middle East getting all those juicy NOs.  Yes, Russia could work to mitigate this, but I am assuming by the Time America lands in Spain (Earliest is round 4, realistic is closer to round 5 or 6) Russia should be on its last legs.

[Alsch91]

James -

Now that you’ve spent everything in the ocean and have declared war on me turn 1, I can just put insane pressure on you through the mainland.  You’ll have trouble keeping up with that, having not bought much - if any - land forces.  I’ll just take the DEI, considering your fleet can’t really attack mine, and then put enough resources into that fleet.  It won’t take much, since your income has dropped to 5-7, and mine has jumped way up.  Attacking you won’t piss off America, so it’s just a matter of time for you.  Doubly since America isn’t spending much in the Pacific anyway.
I’m not going to attack until I have an overwhelming navy, and that won’t take much time.
Calcutta’s mine.

[JamesAleman]

@Alsch91:

James -

Now that you’ve spent everything in the ocean and have declared war on me turn 1, I can just put insane pressure on you through the mainland.  You’ll have trouble keeping up with that, having not bought much - if any - land forces.  I’ll just take the DEI, considering your fleet can’t really attack mine, and then put enough resources into that fleet.  It won’t take much, since your income has dropped to 5-7, and mine has jumped way up.  Attacking you won’t piss off America, so it’s just a matter of time for you.  Doubly since America isn’t spending much in the Pacific anyway.
I’m not going to attack until I have an overwhelming navy, and that won’t take much time.
Calcutta’s mine.

I understand where you are coming from, having played Japan many times it seems accurate. Except for a new wrinkle:

The new twist that you are not used to is the fact that China does not die because of the USSR involvement. This creates a buffer preventing access to India over land. 17 units are moved to Amur turn 1 as bait…hoping Japan hits it, but if not, they slide into Korea and if left alive march through Manchuria to Yunnan. The main difference is that China has the burma road from turn 2-turn 5 typically and specifically because of USSR involvement. 12 units hitting Japans land units without plane cover stops their advance…They’ll need factories if their navy is deployed south…again more time bought.

If you build heavy navy to breach the Indian fleet, you will not have the money to reinforce against China on land.
If you fail to destroy the UK navy by turn 3, it redeploys to link up with the allied fleet at one of the DEI making sure Japan is denied the NO. After turn 3, Land unit builds are likely with India as the fleet goes Island hoping.

Once Anzac has 15 land units it will likely go navy also, increasing the pressure that Japan must bear on the allied fleet.

I know this sounds crazy, but I have seen it work out 2 different ways so far. (pacific part)

[Alsch91]

Firstly if you stack on Amur “as bait” I take that, not as bait, but as a nice opportunity.  Of course I’m going to hit it, so those infantry will never see Chinese soil.  China can’t interrupt me when I’m pumping infantry through southeast Asia; they simply aren’t allowed to because of China’s limitations.
In addition, the forces I start with in Asia are enough to keep China very busy.  Sure, I won’t stomp China out entirely, but they definitely will never become something more than a nuisance.

I’m only spending minimally on the mainland.  A little bit of infantry + my boatload of planes is more than powerful to push into India.  The rest is going into subs.  By the time you leave India’s shores to “island hop” my fleet’s more than powerful enough to crush yours.

[Jennifer]

Agreed, only I’d follow up the loss with a Mechanized Infantry/Armor blitz into open Russian land.

[ViribusUnitis]

I have nothing against out of the box thinking, and you might be right with the Spain tactic. On the pacific side I’m not sure. I tend to agree with Jenn, but i do see a strong British fleet in the Pacific as a problem. In my experience it’s never easy to conquer India… And that might just make it hard enough for Japan.

Anyways I’d like to challenge you! (If i can figure out how online playing works…)

Heil, from Austria.

[JamesAleman]

@ViribusUnitis:

I have nothing against out of the box thinking, and you might be right with the Spain tactic. On the pacific side I’m not sure. I tend to agree with Jenn, but i do see a strong British fleet in the Pacific as a problem. In my experience it’s never easy to conquer India… And that might just make it hard enough for Japan.

Anyways I’d like to challenge you! (If i can figure out how online playing works…)

Heil, from Austria.

Cool, I just figured out how online works sort of, so you can be my first, would you like me to play the allies?

Greetings from the Midwestern  USA. 9 miles(14.4 kilometers) from the St. Louis,Missouri Gateway Arch (which is a 192 meter[630feet] stainless steel archway with elevators inside that permit observation from the top via a number of windows-should be plenty of time to warn us about approaching Austrians from Illinois-especially the kind talked about in the movie “Blues Brothers” Its flank is protected by a river a few meters away forcing an amphibious assault from the shores of Illinois if we knock out the 3 Bridges in the region. That should buy us the time we need to entrench from our current “Lincoln” :) )