Problems with the Axis

[newpaintbrush]

Replies in red, within quoted text.

@_Flin_:

• R1 WR and UKR (sometimes strafe)
• G1 British Fleet, AES, a bit in Russia with consolidation in UKR, taking Karelia/UKR, sometimes setting up Belo and UKR for trades. If Russia did West Russia/Ukraine, German consolidation at Ukraine on G1 can usually be smashed by Russia.  Imagine an R1 purchase of 5 infantry 1 artillery 1 tank (2 inf 2 art 2 tank is better vs a G1 Ukraine stack, but let’s say Russian player wanted to leave some room for offense.  After mobilization at end of R1 (Russia 1) you may have 5 infantry 1 artillery 1 tank on West Russia, 2 tanks on Ukraine, 5 infantry 1 artillery on Caucasus (placing 3 infantry 1 artillery), 6 infantry 1 tank on Russia (placing 2 infantry 1 tank), plus 2 Russian fighters floating around.  Assuming Germany retakes Ukraine with everything, that’s something like 11 expected German units on Ukraine at end of G1.  Russia’s counter is 7 dice from West Russia, 6 dice from Caucasus, 1 dice from Russia, plus 2 fighters, for a 16 dice vs 11 dice counter, with Russian reserves of 6 infantry plus the R2 build to meet the G2 counter.
• UK1 buys AC, 2 DD, attacks Algeria with Bomber/INF,ARM, sinks Baltic fleet with Fighters. Usually no AES counter. Sinks Jap Trn off Kuangtung with fighter. Indian fleet flees.Germany should probably not have left any units on Algeria.  Supposing Germany to have landed fighters on Western Europe, moving the Algeria units on G1 to Libya would allow for a brutal counter to an Allied landing on Algeria, either by hitting a light ground force with ground from Libya plus Western Europe air, or if Algeria strongly defended, destroying a lot of valuable Allied fleet.

Allowing Germany to control a tank in Anglo-Egypt at the end of G1 opens the door to Japanese fleet in Mediterranean.  Specifically, a G2 capture of Anglo-Egypt and Trans-Jordan (far easier if UK does not counter AES on UK1), protecting both against a UK2 retake, allows J2 movement of battleship and carrier through the Suez canal into the Mediterranean Sea.  This also allows Germany to blitz tanks through Africa on G2.  It is almost impossible for US to counter a G2 tank blitz through Africa, and a KGF (Kill Germany First) plan that leaves Germany sitting on African IPCs means Germany should be far harder to break.

If you’re going to suicide the UK India fleet, it’s probably best to send a UK cruiser or carrier to kill the Japanese transport off Kwangtung.  In a KGF plan, the UK India fleet usually can’t reach the Atlantic to be of use in time.  Alternate uses of cruiser include bombardment of Anglo-Egypt and Borneo; alternate use of carrier includes parking southeast of Africa as a fighter base; if Japan hits the UK carrier/fighter, it risks fighters; if Japan does not hit the UK carrier/fighter, you can set yourself up for a UK2 kill of the German Baltic fleet.

At any rate, suiciding the UK India fleet is probably not best.  There are small but important objective you can accomplish with them.

You’re probably stacking 6 Russian infantry on Buryatia and joining the UK fighter there, preserving Buryatia past J1 for a threatened R2 attack into Manchuria of 6 infantry plus air.  Granted, this does put early pressure on Japan, restricts Japan’s income early, and increases Russian income early, all of which are very nice.  But unless you’re committing to KJF (Kill Japan First), Japan makes back the territory quickly, and with German control of African IPCs, and Japanese fleet in the Mediterranean, you’re looking at a mid-long term Germany that’s very powerful and rich, in exchange for a short-term inconvenience to Japan.

• J1 Attacks China, Small Pearl, buys 2 tran and ground units.If you’re going for early tank presence in Asia, IC/2 transport makes sense.  If you’re just going for sheer units, 4 transports (if UK won’t be able to threaten French Indochina sea zone) or 3 transports 1 destroyer do decently.  You can take ground units from the Japanese islands like Phillipines, Okinawa, Wake, and East Indies.  But at any rate you probably really do not need 2 transports and ground units as a J1 buy.
• US reinforces Algeria, spreads ressources Atlantic/Pacific.If you split US early, it’s usually not a good idea.  You have to race Japan’s 2 battleships, 2 carriers, 5-6 fighters, and bomber in the Pacific, and keep an eye on Africa and Europe, which usually means building US defensive fleet early to escort US transports.  The more you concentrate force in one area, the more force your opponent will need to bring to bear to counter, the more flexibility you will have.  The less you concentrate your force, the less your opponent will need to counter, the more flexibility your opponent will have.

Considering that UK/US should have lost at least 3 transports by end of G2 because of the listed Allied moves to Algeria, Allied infrastructure should be shot, and considering there’s a good chance of Japanese reinforcement to the Med fleet, Germans should have a good chance to a long-term stall in Africa.

Sounds to me like the Axis just aren’t pressing their potential attacks hard enough.

“Is there a certain rhythm to the Eastern front?” - sure, Europe, Africa, and Japan should all go to the same beat.  Specifically, if Germany’s pushing like crazy and Japan’s lagging, then the Russians can punish Germany for its greed early, then when UK/US contain Germany, Russia can turn around and fight Japan.  Or if Japan pushes like mad and Germany lags, vice versa.  Only when Japan and Germany time their attacks and exert pressure early is Russia really pressured.

“So how do you balance Africa/Russia/Atlantic? Are the Japanese fighters the key to that?”  Germany just grabs whatever it can in Africa, preserving its presence there as long as possible.  Forget fighting in the main Atlantic; it just isn’t possible unless Allies screw up horribly.  The only place the Axis can really hope to control against a KGF is the Mediterranean, and even then it comes at a cost in Europe.  Japanese air is not the answer to German control of Africa/Russia/Atlantic.

“You can even build an IC (in Anglo-Egypt on UK2).”  If you buy an IC anywhere for UK, you’re slowing your fleet infrastructure, which means slower progress to making drops in Europe.  Plus you make a very juicy target for Japan.  Anyways, Germany should probably not have left its ground on Algeria at end of G1, meaning there’s a decent chance of G2 hitting Anglo-Egypt with 4 ground plus air (depending on the G1 buy)  You don’t want to give India to Japan easily, but with a bit of UK and Russian shenanigans, Japan should have a hard time holding on to India early, with minimal Russian/UK investment.

“WUTLOL?! Can I haz IPCs (for Japan)” - let’s say UK1 moved Australian sub to range of French Indochina sea zone.  J1 counter destroys any UK India fleet that’s in reach of Japanese navy.  J1 build of 3 transports 1 destroyer.  You start with 6 ground on Japan, 1 on Wake, 1 on Okinawa, 2 on Phillipines, 2 on East Indies, plus possibles on New Guinea, Caroline Islands, and Solomon Islands.  Say you take 2 ground from Japan, and drop to Kwangtung.  (This is about the worst case scenario for Japan).  J2 you have 4 ground on Japan, 1 on Wake, 1 on Okinawa, 2 on East Indies, and 4 transports.  Two of those transports will have to be committed to Buryatia (if dropping to Asia) because of taking infantry from Okinawa/Wake.  The other two can be used on targets ranging from Manchuria to India (although only one makes it to India), but let’s say that Japan commits one transport to Manchuria and one to French Indochina.  This empties Japan and the surrounding islands on J2, and leaves Japan with 4 transports.  1 of those transports can be used to take infantry from East Indies for J3.  So you only really will want 6 ground for the J2 build to fill all transports available.  But that’s only 18 IPCs or so; you still have 2 units that you can build, and perhaps 12 IPCs.  So you can probably afford a transport and a tank, or perhaps transport/infantry and save a few IPCs.  Alternatively, on J2 you could start trying to pick up isolated infantry from Carolines/etc. and harassing Alaska, Hawaii, Australia, etc, but the basics are pretty much the same - picking up Japanese infantry from the islands and using them; you hit 5-6 transports very fast, and with only 3-4 transports taking targets from Japan, you can build a Japanese IC on J3 or J4, depending on the particulars.  A Japanese IC at India may be a little too ambitious in a lot of games; with tight Allied play, French Indochina’s a better bet usually.

“please excuse if I sound a bit angry”

Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

[Hobbes]

@Bunnies:

Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Nonsense. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your units, up there on Asia, are walking into a trap, as is your Atlantic fleet. It was I who allowed the Allies to attack W. Europe. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I’m afraid the Axis airforces will be quite operational when your navy arrives.  :evil:

[mtngoatjoe]

@Hobbes:

@Bunnies:

Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Nonsense. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your units, up there on Asia, are walking into a trap, as is your Atlantic fleet. It was I who allowed the Allies to attack W. Europe. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I’m afraid the Axis airforces will be quite operational when your navy arrives.  :evil:

Would that make the French Resistance a band of Ewoks?

[_Flin_]

@Bunnies:

• US reinforces Algeria, spreads ressources Atlantic/Pacific.If you split US early, it’s usually not a good idea.  You have to race Japan’s 2 battleships, 2 carriers, 5-6 fighters, and bomber in the Pacific, and keep an eye on Africa and Europe, which usually means building US defensive fleet early to escort US transports.  The more you concentrate force in one area, the more force your opponent will need to bring to bear to counter, the more flexibility you will have.  The less you concentrate your force, the less your opponent will need to counter, the more flexibility your opponent will have.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Nevertheless this is what usually happens in our matches, and still the Allies win, when actually they shouldn’t. Because they split. Seems as if we just play Japan totally wrong.

Sounds to me like the Axis just aren’t pressing their potential attacks hard enough.

The fine balance, especially at the Russian front for the Germans, is hard to figure out. I hope I can play Germany this sunday and try the new insights.

Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Never a Jedi I’ll become. To much anger inside of me I have.

Thank you for your comments. Especially the part about the massive transport buys in the first turns was something Japan never used in our matches. So usually Japan had 3-5 transports, always leaving them on the short side.

[Hobbes]

@MtnGoatJoe:

@Hobbes:

@Bunnies:

Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Nonsense. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your units, up there on Asia, are walking into a trap, as is your Atlantic fleet. It was I who allowed the Allies to attack W. Europe. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I’m afraid the Axis airforces will be quite operational when your navy arrives.  :evil:

Would that make the French Resistance a band of Ewoks?

And the Russian sub is the Millennium Falcon… go get them Lando!

[_Flin_]

@Hobbes:

And the Russian sub is the Millennium Falcon… go get them Lando!

Building the second Death Star in the Endor System then is the equivalent to a German Industrial Complex in South Africa.

[SilverAngelSurfer]

@Hobbes:

@Bunnies:

Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Nonsense. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your units, up there on Asia, are walking into a trap, as is your Atlantic fleet. It was I who allowed the Allies to attack W. Europe. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Oh, I’m afraid the Axis airforces will be quite operational when your navy arrives.  :evil:

This actually expresses how the Allies and Axis have to behave in Spring 1942 (though it’s a little more like the prequel trilogy than the original): the Allies have the upper-hand economically, therefore the Axis have to be aggressive with their slight military advantage to gain territory and IPCs so they can reverse the balance of power.  Conversely the Allies have to defend Moscow and counter the Axis advances to maintain their economic superiority in order to eventually crush the Axis.

If the Axis are too passive or defensive, they will lose.  However, the Axis start out with superior positioning for inflicting more damage on the Allies, so the Allies have to play smart and cool to contain the Axis rage in order to win.

Going with the whole Star Wars prequels analogy for Spring 1942, Germany is Palpatine, right in the middle of everything having to balance all the political powers, and Japan is Anakin, coming out of nowhere to strike down the Jedi order.  The US is Yoda (green obviously  8-)) who has to be careful not to be so detached that they get distracted or deflected and miss the opportunity to take down the bad guys.  The UK is Obi-Won who are right in the middle of everything fighting it out, but can easily get in over their heads and be rendered ineffective.  The USSR is Mace Windu, who puts up a good fight, but once they get taken out by the Anakin/Palpatine combo, it marks the beginning of the end for the Jedi/Allies.
:mrgreen:

[KaLeu]

And for the neutral wastelands that don’t care which side will win - Jabba the Hutt.

[Hobbes]

C-3PO: “Sir, the odds of winning the battle on SZ6 are 1 million, three hundred and seventy-five to one”

[newpaintbrush]

Never tell me the odds!

[_Flin_]

Another 3 matches, another 3 losses for the axis.

Match 1: Germany f***ed up, playing aggressively while not being able to do so and maintaining the pressure after a G1 Baltic AC build and average successful R1 WRu and Ukr. So Germany just lost it’s tanks one by one, Japan was too slow, taking the long road, building only 4 transports with no transport on the southern route. Axis quickly gave up.

Match 2: My turn for Germany at last. Went Bomber, 6 INF, 2 arm on G1. Played defensively for a few turns on the eastern front, taking Karelia and building up pressure towards WRu and Ukr. Built another Bomber on G2, so that when UK invaded Norway I could kill his fleet, leaving me with 3 Bombers and no fighters. A russian sub in the Black Sea was a rather clever invest, costing me 12 IPC for 2 dds and forcing me to do suboptimal fleet moves (countering US invasion of Algeria instead of retaking AES).
The US, in what everyone thought to be a silly strategy, advanced with it’s whole fleet towards the pacific. And then disaster struck. My Japan teammate, usually a great player, didn’t notice after a 3 Bomber build from the US that his bombers from WUs could land in the Russian country north of Bur (which he didn’t take on J2 due to lucky russian dice). So there went most of his fleet against better than average dice (which only led to a better outcome for the US). Next turn Japan didn’t take down (or notice) the lone transport in front of Alaska. So Japan was taken with 1 INF, 4 ftr and Battleship Bombardment vs. 4 INF, 1 Art and a ftr.

Man, was I disappointed (and my teammate rather embarrassed). Everything runs according to plan (except for a few unlucky dice), and then such a stunt.

Match 3: Another AC build for Germany (me with UK/US), this time in the Med with a tran. I didn’t want to show up in the first place, and my only comment was “Had I known this beforehand, I had’nt come.”

It still became more interesting than anticipated, due to lucky German dice on the AES counter on UK1 and Germany taking whole of Africa. Japan again didn’t take his transports to the southern route, therefore again being too slow in Asia, never mind not picking up Infantry from the Islands. UK/US shuck to Norway on turn 3, then Eastern Europe on turn 4, then Germany turn 5. German player with mistakes on turn 5, not defending Germany enough (neither with enough INF nor with Japanese fighters). Lucky dice on top for the allies sealed the Berlin deal on US5, Axis surrendering.

So still, Axis looks bad in our matches. If only my fellow players would refrain from pulling ridiculous stunts and questionable strategies.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

My friends have the opposite opinion.  They are stubborn, keep having me play the axis so I am perhaps a poor allied player, though in 2nd edition I was a deadly allied player, not hard without bids though!

My friend swears the axis is too powerful and the allies need a bid in order to survive.  I think we just need to play against some new blood so we can be schooled, embarrassed, curse the dice then finally accept we were missing something.

Read the article on Fortress Europe, review what few play by forum games remain, its a pity old legacy games and posts have been removed but there remains a few.  Get into triple A, I dabbled with it but do not seem to have the time to get into it.

Try to get your group to do a play by forum here, it would make it easy to have folks here dissect it in a friendly way and provide alternate moves and constructive critiques.

I was hoping the high level players here might do a simulated so called typical game.  Standard starting moves done, agreed upon results of dice knowing dice gods will change your plans.  However, its rare to have dice change your Kill german first into a kill japan first strategy so its safe to have a pretend game with typical game flows with typical dice rolls with perhaps a few offshot discussions to cover what-ifs in the case of abnormal dice outcomes.

[_Flin_]

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I think we just need to play against some new blood so we can be schooled, embarrassed, curse the dice then finally accept we were missing something.

Read the article on Fortress Europe, review what few play by forum games remain, its a pity old legacy games and posts have been removed but there remains a few.

Yes, I noticed the part about 1942 games, few there, too bad.

I read the fortress Europe article and got quite inspired by it, reading up on it on this board in seperate threads. I used the superior placing of the Luftwaffe in France (british fleet sunk in the process due to my opponent somehow not noticing that I have 2 subs as cannon fodder). Played defensively and most was well (except for a stupid mistake as response to an R2 sub buy in the Black Sea). Too bad Japan self-destroyed on 4th/5th turn. I look forward to play more matches as Germany. I am not the only one, though. Everyone in our group wants to play Germany, and everyone is keen on trying their own special tech, no matter how loud I cringe :-)

[Advosan]

@_Flin_:

Everyone in our group wants to play Germany, and everyone is keen on trying their own special tech, no matter how loud I cringe :-)

Germany is not imho free to choose its stance in the game. To the contrary, it is obliged to adapt to the Allies stance towards Japan.
If the Allies put too much pressure on Japan, Germany has to go all out against Russia, bying at least 5 armor per round, fortifying Ukraine and having its eye fixed on WR-Caucasus.
If the Allies totally ignore Japan, Germany has to brace itself for an all-out defence, buying at least 10 inf per round, safeguarding its luftwaffe, trying to hold on to Africa for as long as possible and hoping that the Japanese airforce won t be landing too late in Europe… 
If the German player ignores the Allied initiatives and simply goes on with whatever “sceme” he has, things will probably go bad for the Axis.

[El Ravager]

@_Flin_:

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I think we just need to play against some new blood so we can be schooled, embarrassed, curse the dice then finally accept we were missing something.

Read the article on Fortress Europe, review what few play by forum games remain, its a pity old legacy games and posts have been removed but there remains a few.

Yes, I noticed the part about 1942 games, few there, too bad.

I read the fortress Europe article and got quite inspired by it, reading up on it on this board in seperate threads. I used the superior placing of the Luftwaffe in France (british fleet sunk in the process due to my opponent somehow not noticing that I have 2 subs as cannon fodder). Played defensively and most was well (except for a stupid mistake as response to an R2 sub buy in the Black Sea). Too bad Japan self-destroyed on 4th/5th turn. I look forward to play more matches as Germany. I am not the only one, though. Everyone in our group wants to play Germany, and everyone is keen on trying their own special tech, no matter how loud I cringe :-)

Maybe try a 1 vs 1 game where you can be both Japan and Germany? Sounds like every Axis loss could be attributed to your friends wrecking your plans  :-(

[Hobbes]

@El:

Everyone in our group wants to play Germany, and everyone is keen on trying their own special tech, no matter how loud I cringe :-)

Let them try. :)

I play hundreds of games online using TripleA but when I play face to face with my friends I just shrug my shoulders everytime one of my team partners decides to do something crazy, like not buying anything that round, so that on the next round he’ll have a ton of money to try to surprise our opponent. To me it’s a crazy move that never solves anything but I stopped trying to lecture them and just have fun. It’s hard for me not to give opinions on what they should buy or attack but unless it is something very critical I nowadays make an effort to shut up unless they ask my opinion. People learn more when they are allowed to make their own mistakes.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Hey Hobbes, out of curiosity, do you play the allies or axis more?  Do you win more often with one side versus the other?

[Hobbes]

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Hey Hobbes, out of curiosity, do you play the allies or axis more?  Do you win more often with one side versus the other?

I play both equally, i usually just let my opponent choose sides. Regarding winning more with one side or another, I say that it seems balanced but this view is certainly biased since it is not usual for me to lose a game playing 1v1.

There are a few quirks though regarding each side that have an impact on the balance between sides, besides the higher production level of the Allies or the initial unit placement for the Axis. The Allies cooperate themselves more naturally than the Axis. Allied collaboration is usually more ‘tactical’ (regarding occupying/reinforcing territories/areas) but Axis collaboration is more ‘strategic’, like Japan moving fast to take Novo/Kazakh to force Russia to split its forces and spend units instead of using all to position itself to prepare for Germany’s round.

Axis have a steeper learning curve, I’d say, to use their advantages and negate the Allies’ ones. And if you are playing Axis with teammates there’s a tendency for G/J players to think more of their own backyards than the whole situation.

Germany is the best example. If the Allies go KGF and it can’t defend itself as Japan is taking Russia then the Axis lose. If the Allies go KJF and it doesn’t take Russia, the Axis lose again. If the Allies go both… then it has to make the right choices. Meanwhile, the Allies can and should sacrifice Russia if that’s the price to pay to take Germany. That option is not available to the Axis.

[Zhukov44]

IMO in a game between experienced players, Axis has a small advantage.  But that edge can easily be upended by first round dice.  Axis can fall behind dramatically on G1 if any of SZ2, SZ13, SZ15, or Egypt fail.

The reason novices commonly think Allies have the advantage is that Axis has to be played well in the first few rounds in order to capitalize on their opportunities.  If Axis doesn’t come forward where it’s supposed to then the Allied economic advantage will quickly assert itself.

I think if you presented this game to 2 players who are already experts in Classic or Revised then Axis would win the majority of games, and it would take them a while to develop suitable Allied strategies.

[_Flin_]

@El:

Maybe try a 1 vs 1 game where you can be both Japan and Germany? Sounds like every Axis loss could be attributed to your friends wrecking your plans  :-(

Will probably happen soon. The Axis losses can be attributed mainly to the inexperience of 3 of our group, who still have to figure out that it’s 1942, not 1941 :-)
Actually the two most experienced players played Allies more often. The Japanese player I played with had lost a single match up to his back-to-back bloopers when he played with me.

As soon as everyone will figure out that there is no magic wand for the Axis that makes you win, matches will get more interesting.

But you need to play very precise moves which maximize your potential in the first 3-4 rounds.
Furthermore react on any bad moves from the Allies and capitalize on them.
And on top of it you need a very very good feeling for the necessity of your ressources, because overcommiting (Japanese Navy; Africa) our undercommiting to any theatre and not using the ressources to maximum effect (like strafes against Russia with the tanks; Or taking the infantry of the islands as Japan) will make a steep hill even steeper.

EDIT: And actually I myself play mistakes on a regular basis. Only difference is that mine are original :-)