it’s one of those things where you have “12 IPC’s left” and someone is wanting to build ships but dont just want 2 subs
Cruisers
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I see the cruiser’s aa gun as a idea for tech, not a default ability
I don’t like cruisers at 10 IPCs. It would make them better blockers than dd, even counting the submarine strikes. One has to count the multiple targets tactic (very useful in Pacific Ocean): one could mix dds and cruisers (at different SZs) as blockers, probably making impossible for the attacker to kill all of them. You have to send more punch to kill a 3/3 blocker than to kill a 2/2 blocker, and the attaker usually will lose more units in the trade
I still think that many people continue thinking with a Classic (or Annyv.) mentality. Cost is only one factor when buying a unit
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I see the cruiser’s aa gun as a idea for tech, not a default ability
I don’t like cruisers at 10 IPCs. It would make them better blockers than dd, even counting the submarine strikes. One has to count the multiple targets tactic (very useful in Pacific Ocean): one could mix dds and cruisers (at different SZs) as blockers, probably making impossible for the attacker to kill all of them. You have to send more punch to kill a 3/3 blocker than to kill a 2/2 blocker, and the attaker usually will lose more units in the trade
I still think that many people continue thinking with a Classic (or Annyv.) mentality. Cost is only one factor when buying a unit
Amen to that.
If you don’t think you should ever buy a cruiser for 12, then don’t buy them.
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The application is too narrow imo. If they were brought down to 11, I bet more people would actually think between a destroyer and a cruiser. Right now they are only a filler when you have 9-19 left over for ships.
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@Zallomallo:
The application is too narrow imo. If they were brought down to 11, I bet more people would actually think between a destroyer and a cruiser. Right now they are only a filler when you have 9-19 left over for ships.
Exactly.
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@Zallomallo:
The application is too narrow imo. If they were brought down to 11, I bet more people would actually think between a destroyer and a cruiser. Right now they are only a filler when you have 9-19 left over for ships.
Can’t say I agree. I think they are a great supremacy unit with their 3/3. As said they do not stand alone, but I think they belong in any naval force if wanting to create naval dominace
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But you’re not providing any reason.
For 24 IPCs I can buy 2 cruisers or 3 destroyers. Both of these options provide a total of 6 points on offense and 6 points on defense. But three destroyers gives me 3 hits instead of the 2 that the cruisers give. And after one hit, 2 destroyers are superior to 1 cruiser.
So simply by the numbers, destoyers are superior. I am disregarding their bombard capabilities, obviously. But cruisers do not nullify subs’ abilities, so take that as you will.I did earlier in the thread.
When coupled with 2 hit capital ships the 3 value of the cruiser is IMO superior to a 2 value of a destroyer for a cost/effective ratio. As said (many times) - the cruiser does not stand alone, it is part of a fleet. If looking at just one cruiser versus a destroyer - sure - but then a ship is mainly fodder/blocker as well. But as part of a fleet (with double hit capital ships) then the stack-ability of a 3 attack value comes to light when packing a punch on the first 1 or 2 rounds of combat and will help you weed out the enemy fast(er).Plus the anti-sub ability is solved with 1 destroyer per stack, but the bombing ability is enhanced with multiple cruisers (if having enough troops of course).
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But you’re not providing any reason.
For 24 IPCs I can buy 2 cruisers or 3 destroyers. Both of these options provide a total of 6 points on offense and 6 points on defense. But three destroyers gives me 3 hits instead of the 2 that the cruisers give. And after one hit, 2 destroyers are superior to 1 cruiser.
So simply by the numbers, destoyers are superior. I am disregarding their bombard capabilities, obviously. But cruisers do not nullify subs’ abilities, so take that as you will.I did earlier in the thread.
When coupled with 2 hit capital ships the 3 value of the cruiser is IMO superior to a 2 value of a destroyer for a cost/effective ratio. As said (many times) - the cruiser does not stand alone, it is part of a fleet. If looking at just one cruiser versus a destroyer - sure - but then a ship is mainly fodder/blocker as well. But as part of a fleet (with double hit capital ships) then the stack-ability of a 3 attack value comes to light when packing a punch on the first 1 or 2 rounds of combat and will help you weed out the enemy fast(er).Plus the anti-sub ability is solved with 1 destroyer per stack, but the bombing ability is enhanced with multiple cruisers (if having enough troops of course).
Well I think they’re about the same in cost/attack/defence ratios as destroyers, but they take less hits.
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@Zallomallo:
But you’re not providing any reason.
For 24 IPCs I can buy 2 cruisers or 3 destroyers. Both of these options provide a total of 6 points on offense and 6 points on defense. But three destroyers gives me 3 hits instead of the 2 that the cruisers give. And after one hit, 2 destroyers are superior to 1 cruiser.
So simply by the numbers, destoyers are superior. I am disregarding their bombard capabilities, obviously. But cruisers do not nullify subs’ abilities, so take that as you will.I did earlier in the thread.
When coupled with 2 hit capital ships the 3 value of the cruiser is IMO superior to a 2 value of a destroyer for a cost/effective ratio. As said (many times) - the cruiser does not stand alone, it is part of a fleet. If looking at just one cruiser versus a destroyer - sure - but then a ship is mainly fodder/blocker as well. But as part of a fleet (with double hit capital ships) then the stack-ability of a 3 attack value comes to light when packing a punch on the first 1 or 2 rounds of combat and will help you weed out the enemy fast(er).Plus the anti-sub ability is solved with 1 destroyer per stack, but the bombing ability is enhanced with multiple cruisers (if having enough troops of course).
Well I think they’re about the same in cost/attack/defence ratios as destroyers, but they take less hits.
It’s way easier to roll 1,2 or 3 than 1 or 2.
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It’s way easier to roll 1,2 or 3 than 1 or 2.
Just not getting it, are we?
Please reread what Alsch91 wrote. No matter how you group them, DDs are better.
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It’s way easier to roll 1,2 or 3 than 1 or 2.
Just not getting it, are we?
Please reread what Alsch91 wrote. No matter how you group them, DDs are better.
Just not getting it, are you? DDs are more efficient for naval and air combat only. DDs are completely worthless once your fleet is safe from air attack and your opponent is not buying any boats. Worthless! As are subs.
In global now, the Axis are trying to dominate one theater and take a bunch of victory cities. Once you have established fleet dominance in an area (say around Australia, for example) the destroyers are worthless. The application for cruisers is very narrow. But they do have their narrow niche. If you guys think they’re a waste, don’t buy them. What are you trying to do, get the rules to change? If you are, you’re on the wrong site.
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I think you should only buy cruisers if you can’t afford a battleship or 2 subs…
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I think you should only buy cruisers if you can’t afford a battleship or 2 subs…
well, 2 subs is 1 cruiser…
(or a bomber)
edit: i found the brittish cruisers in the indian ocean useful in supporting the few african troops there. Don’t think i’d buy more of them, though, maybe(as allies) later in the game when it is time for amphibious attacks.
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@mantlefan:
OK. How common are those situations? When Japan or US in the pac are wiped out? When Germany is ready to land on Leningrad after the Russians have already abandoned it?
I agree. Not common. Why didn’t you quote the part where I said cruisers have a limited niche?
The only power that I get good use out of cruisers with is Italy, and that’s because they start out with them.
Yes, and they’re really nice units, aren’t they?
Saying they are good in situation A doesn’t make them good on a relevant scale when situation A comes about mostly after any use of situation A coming about has any real effect on the game.
I think I almost know what you’re trying to say here, but it’s just not quite making sense… I think you need better sentence structure.
I don’t see why telling people not to buy them if they don’t like them is helpful with a discussion of them being good buys or not.
Wasn’t trying to help with that comment, you’re right. That’s just evidence of a little frustration of this same old topic coming up again and again. My point is, what is the point of dissing cruisers? Just don’t buy them! Everybody knows destroyers are more efficient and generally more effective in the more common air and naval defense, and naval attack, and sub blocking, and sub destroying. But that doesn’t mean destroyers are always the best buy over cruisers. Always is a strong word. That’s my only point. I rarely buy cruisers, because I like to win. :-)
However, there are things to consider between the differences between cruisers and destroyers. I’ve listed several before, but here’s one I don’t usually cite. If you don’t have a destroyer, then you can’t hit enemy subs with air power. This can be a really good strategy, to not take destroyers into a naval battle if the enemy has a bunch of subs and surface ships, and you have a bunch of air power.
Example:
You have 5 fighters and 5 bombers, 5 subs, and either 5 destroyers or 3 cruisers.
You are looking to attack 8 subs, 3 destroyers, 2 carriers, and 4 fighters.If you have the cruisers instead of the destroyers, then in the first round all of your air hits must be applied to non-subs. Subs defend on a 1 and are cheap, so you don’t want your air hits applied to them. His sub hits (one or 2 probably) can be applied to your subs. So you see, in this type of battle (not terribly uncommon) cruisers would be better to have then destroyers.
There are so many situations and differences between destroyers and cruisers and subs, that you shouldn’t just come up with some magical formula like “never buy cruisers”.
And I still stand by my point that when there isn’t an air or naval threat on your fleet, and no fleet in range to attack that destroyers and subs are at that time completely worthless. But cruisers may be used to bombard. It’s a little like when you have bombers. When there are no good conventional military targets to attack, your bombers can go Strat bomb raid. Your fighters can do nothing but sit there and look pretty. So cruisers do have applications when they are not defending your fleet or attacking another fleet - they can bombard, and for the cost they pack the most power for bombardment.In various cruiser discussions that keep popping up (because the number crunchers keep looking at 8 IPC vs. 12 IPC and 2A2D vs 3A3D and saying therefore, that destroyers are vastly superior) I don’t know how many different reasons and examples I’ve come up with for why cruisers can be better than destroyers, but it’s quite a few. But if you don’t understand these reasons or are stubborn about your brilliant math involving 8 vs 12 and 2 vs 3, then it’s your loss, and I am just saying fine, never buy cruisers, you know?
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It can be advantageous also, to not have any destroyers in your fleet for defense. The fighters on your carriers will take out non-sub casualties. If your opponent has high-dollar high-attack units like battleships or bombers or carriers and a lot of subs, having a destroyer in your fleet can be a great detriment. No such problem with other boats, including cruisers. And again, the cruiser can bombard when it’s your turn to go on offense, while the subs cannot (in anticipation of the argument that then you should build 2 subs instead of a cruiser).
As another player pointed out also, higher quality units like cruisers roll more times than destroyers or subs that roll once and then are lost in the first round. It’s why I like to leave a tank or a plane on defense with an infantry stack. That 3 or 4 may get to roll several times. Also, if they are trying to do a hit and run and they don’t want to take the territory (or sea zone) then you are left with your best unit…. etc. etc.
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Heh, my opponent just bought a cruiser with the UK. Looks like he wanted maximum fleet defense, and that’s the way the money fell out.
You have 12 bucks to spend on fleet. 2 subs can’t hit air. Would you rather have a destroyer or cruiser?
That’s what I thought.
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The usefulness of cruisers is (as previously mentioned) a very limited roll, but absolutely one that can, and DOES come into play in many games I’ve played.
I don’t think I’ve ever played a game (AA50 to AAG40) that did NOT include cruisers in fleet purchases (Especially for Japan, the US and UK).
Personally, I like them. Just not as the backbone of a fleet. I’d rather buy a cruiser and a destroyer instead of a battleship in almost all cases as well.
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Yes, Rorschach, a destroyer and cruiser can go 2 different places (BB can only be in one place at a time), and can score 2 hits, and have a “punch” of 5 as opposed to 4. The destroyer has anti-sub capabilities, and the cruiser has nearly the bombardment power of the battleship. Of course, there is the other side of the coin as well. The whole “free hit” thing. All depends on your situation and how you want to use them. Main thing is to have fun, though, and cruisers are fun.
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Its so nice you are playing the game for fun and not to actually win.
The whole point to having the cruisers in the game is that the additional variations in the fleet makes things more interesting. But when there’s no point in buying a unit 99% of the time, there is something wrong. So if cruisers are adjusted so it makes sense to buy them at times, then it adds variation to the game and makes the game more fun without having to play stupid.
Oh yeah, and that 1% chance is probably an over-estimate.
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Its so nice you are playing the game for fun and not to actually win.
I’m on top of the AA50 league standings. I play to have fun and to win, and I do both all the time.
The whole point to having the cruisers in the game is that the additional variations in the fleet makes things more interesting. But when there’s no point in buying a unit 99% of the time, there is something wrong. So if cruisers are adjusted so it makes sense to buy them at times, then it adds variation to the game and makes the game more fun without having to play stupid.
Oh yeah, and that 1% chance is probably an over-estimate.
So house rule it. There are a lot of people who want to play with 10 or 11 IPC cruisers, who agree with you. If you want to change the rules, you’re on the wrong website. Go to Harris Design and talk to the man. Here it’s just a bunch of hot air. I just enjoy talking about the utilities of cruisers, and pointing out the flaws in the arguments that they’re not any good.
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@mantlefan:
The problem is that you state without any real justification or consideration that the 12 IPC must be spent on fleet. 4 IPC can be used for some good things elsewhere, no?
Oh, please. Yes, he wanted to protect his fleet and 4 IPC spent on an artillery unit doesn’t do that! Duh! No transports, no getting units off the island!
Creating situations that ignore relevant facts (such as the fact that IPC can be used elsewhere and the point in the game when cruisers would actualy really start ot pay off). to make cruisers seem more useful really doesn’t address any potentially helpful issue.
Oh, and you’re helpful. You just like to argue.
Using cruisers one already has effectively and BUYING cruisers are separate issues. Obviously if one already has it they should maximize its utility. In terms of it being too late for the opponent to attack your navy it’s true that it destroyers do no good, but at that point even though cruisers do marginally more good,it doesn’t MATTER.
Yes, you’re right until the last statement. It does matter, because in Global you could be losing in one theater and winning in the other, and you need to win in that theater fast. Cruisers will help you win the game there. Destroyers will not.
It’s also annoying how your case that seems like cruisers are a better buy 1% of the time is somehow totally dismissive of them being a bad buy 99% of the time.
I disagree with the premise that cruisers are a bad buy 99% of the time.
That % where it is a bad buy pretty much means we have a unit which is effectifely useless to buy, which I guess is similar to AA guns, so it’s not inherently bad, but, if you look at how often crusiers are bought, and think there is value in having more types of units, then it might be helpful to at least admit that it might be a good thing that cruisers might be more useful.
Why are you talking here? We don’t make the rules. Go talk to Larry. Meanwhile, I will enjoy the opportunity to buy cruisers occasionally and you will continue to “suffer”, I guess. Jeez, man. Get over it.
Just because they are not TOTALLY useless buys doesn’t mean they are not EFFECTIVELY useless buys. I don’t want to sandbag the game with too many more changes, but getting cruisers more useful is a valid wish because they are effectively useless buys, and the more options the player has, the better.
<sigh> Look, do you realize I don’t care if I convince anyone? I don’t care if you don’t listen to me. I understand you just badly want to feel good about buying cruisers. Sorry, don’t feel like reiterating all the points I’ve made on other threads. But basically, there is more to think about than 8 vs. 12, as I already stated and you apparently ignored. Talk about not helpful, you don’t address any of the issues I raise, you just come out and state like it’s a proven fact that “one percent of the time” cruisers are a good buy.
There are situations. Limited production situations are one example. When your factory is damaged, cruisers cost 13 and destroyers cost 9. Some people play with tech. You get 2 IPC’s off a cruiser and 1 off a destroyer. So if you have imp shipyards and your factory is damaged, you’re looking at 8 for a destroyer, and 11 for a cruiser. There are different situations. How about the limited production situations? You have a factory that can only produce 3 units and you want fleet power. You don’t have fighters in the area, and you just need enough to protect a transport against a bomber. Do you want to buy a destroyer? A cruiser? A battleship? Nice to have the cruiser option.
Did you not read anything I wrote about the subs and aircraft issues? No, you just come out and say 99% of the time cruisers are a bad buy. How helpful. I’ll tell you what’s annoying, is people like you who just like to argue online. You just enjoy bashing people’s opinions, and it’s ironic that you say I’m not being helpful when that’s all I’m trying to do, and I’m providing discussion about various game situations, and you just come in and lob criticisms.
Easier to throw rocks at sand castles then to build them, I guess. And for many, it’s more fun. :roll:
I’m not putting my thoughts out there for the purpose of argument. I’m putting them out there for people to consider and talk about.</sigh>
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