@seancb we also use a giant piece of plywood because any oval table we could find won’t fit the whole board. Its much better to have something under the board (or vinyl) because prevents the board from getting knocked or moved and has at least some sideboard area for piles of chips and drinks and extras. Still, we need dice pits and another area to put most of our stuff because the game is simply that yuge.
Japanes Pacific conquest - preliminary thoughts.
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Disclaimers -
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This is not a KUSF or KAF approach. This a more general plunge into the Pacific, which will likely kill ANZAC and harass USA
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I am not proposing this as the ultimate Japan strategy. I am brainstorming to consider if it’s viable. I know this approach is dubious, but I don’t think it should be rulled out without due consideration.
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The intention is to draw the USA away from Europe, while still growing and thriving with Japan
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Theses are, as the title suggests, preliminary thoughts. I am not at the recipe stage yet (should I ever get there).
Traditionally Japan has had a hard time venturing into the Pacific, largely because all the money is on the main land. But now there is money in the water!
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The turn Japan takes Sydney, they’ll capture 13-18 IPCs plus collect 2 for the territory and 5 for a bonus. If they get in Hawaii too, that’s another 6. That could be a 26-29 IPC boost when they declare war (plus maybe Alaska, Philippines, British Columbia, etc)) in addition to any gains on the continent.
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There will still be forces on the mainland and lots of planes, so you’ll still grow in that direction too.
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The bulk of your fleet can move to the Carolines turn one. This poises you on Hawaii, ANZAC, or allows a withdraw back to the sea of China (you can see what the Allies do before committing).
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A couple new CVs will allow you to carry up ten planes wherever you go.
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Transports from Japan can hit Alaska and Vancouver the next turn. Vancouver blocks Alaska, so you can move massive planes there the following turn
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Japans advance into the continent will be slowed, but not by too much. Japan has an excess of boats and planes which are hard to make use of against just Russia and China. Certainly some money will be spent on Asia!
If America tries to ignore Japan, Japan should do very well with this. If America responds in force, they’ll out gun Japan but be slow to make any real gains. Japan withdraws slowly back towards Asia, concentrating on defense and continental gains.
If this works, it will alleviate pressure from Italy and Germany. It may even make Sea Lion viable, though it helps Germany either way). Of course there are potential problems:
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America might find a recipe to build just enough Westward to thwart you efforts and still have a strong force in Europe
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With less pressure on India, England puts more pressure on Italy and Africa
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If it takes a couple extra turns to get into India, Russia has more time and resources against Germany.
Has anyone tried, seen, or thought of anything like this? Can anyone offer any insight?
Thanks! -
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In my gaming group Japan has been winning in the Pacific but America, Brittan, and Russia have been crushing Germany and Italy in Europe thus resulting in a large proportion of wins for the allies.
I think Utilizing Japan to take pressure off Europe by forcing America to spend in Pacific or get troops to Europe to help in the fight might be the answer. In the games we have played the American player when pressured by Japan has built stacks of Inf and tanks on the mainland to prevent any Japan attack force from going anywhere. At that point Japan can only convoy raid WUS for 12 points. Even with that and forcing US to spend on defense the US still has been able to run to the Atlantic and cap the axis in Europe with the aid of Russia and Brittan. Normally the Russian player builds all inf and art from turn one and creates a mega stack that can defend the capital. If Japan does not arrive in Russia with pressure when Brittan and US are hitting Germany then the stack is free to run towards Berlin if Germany has to fall back to defend.
I am planning on creating a route with sea bases to get to Africa next game in a timely manner with Japan. Then I hope to grab at least Persia and Iraq for Japan and build minor industrial complexes. With those bases I hope to create a launching pad for Japan to spend IPCS in Europe and help the Axis. One question is how will my Japan do in the Pacific. If America spends heavy in the Pacific then I may have to call this strategy off but then again if America is spending in the Pacific then that will take pressure off Europe.
Final thoughts: Sea Lion only seems worth it to me if it can be done on the cheap because the British player did not spend on defense early. Even then I would not try and spend points to hold it from US unless I found a better way for Japan to pressure US. The games in which sea lion was done in our group with Germany investing heavy resources resulted in Germany getting maimed by Russia.
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Not a bad idea I guess.
But what if America for the most part ignores Japan. Even if Japan were to take nearly all the Pacific, it doesn’t hurt any of the Allies all that much, other than the fact that Japan will have a good deal of money. The US can go straight for Norway or Normandy… once established in either place, the Germans cannot win. Especially if it is early in the game and they have only just attacked Russia (therefore having made limited gains).
Also, if Japan attacks (unprovoked) either Anzac or Britain then America may enter the war. … It has seemed to me allowing American in the war any earlier than turn 4 is pretty much dooming the Axis. My opinion though.
Also, if Japan focuses, say, 2 turns or so on the Pacific… Asia will get token attention… meaning China and India get to be formidable and extremely difficult to assail.
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I used to think J1 was the way to go but have since revised my thinking to J3. Giving US the points early is too much for Italy and Germany to handle in Europe imho.
There will be problems with Pacific Brittan and China but that is something that I will just have to try out and see if Japan can handle both. The element of surprise would help a lot but my main gaming partner is on these forums :(
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I am planning on creating a route with sea bases to get to Africa next game in a timely manner with Japan. Then I hope to grab at least Persia and Iraq for Japan and build minor industrial complexes. With those bases I hope to create a launching pad for Japan to spend IPCS in Europe and help the Axis.
That is going to take some amount of to do, at least 2 turns. Are you planning to take India out first? Because that will take everything you can muster and take about 3 turns. If you bypass India, you gain time, but before you can even establish bases in Persia/Iraq India can send aircraft and tanks to smash whatever you landed… not including what the Russians can or might do.
As for helping the Axis in Europe… the only real way i see japan being able to do this is sacraficing its air force by flying them that way. Everything else is a bit slow. Besides, America is just going to gun all for Germany then anyway.
Interesting, but do you have a more detailed idea of this plan?
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I am planning on attacking J3 and at that point taking all Pacific Britans points aside from the captial. I plan on putting an industrial complex in Malaya maybe J4. From there hopefully I can split my points between sending men to Africa and pressuring China and India. I may be able to get India with my Air Force and the Malaya Industrial complex but I am not sure on what time table.
I plan to build a major Industrial complex upgrade in germany G1. On G2 I will buy 10 art and 10 inf and start sending them forward towards Russia to pressure them. I will have to use my judgement on how much to reinforce it by what Britan and US are doing and how much I will have to spend on defense. I probably won’t set foot into Russia with Germany until G5. I will try to reinforce and get my troops into postion before them. I will peel as many points off Russia with Japan as possible. I know I may not have enough Japan IPCs to do everything I need to do.
All of these plans will have to be thrown out the window if US comes into the Pacific with major spending. Yet if they do that then it does buy Europe more time for Italy to grow and Germany to spend more points on operation Barbarossa.
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I probably won’t set foot into Russia with Germany until G5.
Good lord man! This seems a bit crazy, with all due respect. Russia will be a BEAR by then. They could probably attack you and do quite well. By G5 Russia will have a massive amount of stuff with which to attack, defend and delay you from getting where you need to go. And if the US is in the war early, Germany will more than likely already have things to worry about elsewhere… Normandy or Norway.
I found that waiting any later than G2 to attack Russia gets to be God-awfully difficult.
And as for Japan… should the US build all Pacific… yes you’ll be introuble, but depending on when and where they move, and where you have moved, it might be too late to ‘turn back’ to fight them.
I am not sure what you think about that though.
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You may be right about going in G2. This is a massive game so it takes me some practice to figure these things out. I have just found that going in with mechs and tanks has not worked for me so I wanted to try inf and art.
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In our games on ANZAC 1 the player always moves his Destroyer up to the Queensland SZ to block a Japanese move to the capital in one move. So to take Aus you have to DoW on J2, then wait until J3 to take it, and in the meantime tie up your fleet very far away from the heart of Japanese operations, as well as give the US time to take the Carolines and/or Japan/Korea in the meantime. :/ Not to mention that the USA is only 1 move away from Aus from Hawaii and so can get there easier than you, and with more IPC’s of stuff.
Also Japan doesn’t really threaten allied efforts by taking out aus, so as a US player I think I’d just dump most of my IPC’s into Europe early anyways and put Germany on the defensive before they take the offensive (because of your early DoW)
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I like the G4/G5 attack on Russia It lulls the Russians into doing 2 things. Buying less numbers of more expensive units. And sending more tanks/planes/equipment east to fight Japan. They get lulled into a false sense of security.
Russia also seems to pul back from it’s front line on R4, expecting the impending attack, thereby buying Germany another turn NOT to attack, or to feed forward VERY precisely and slowly.
Better to attack the Russian Bear and be Ready, then to attack to early, without the tools to do the job, and run out of gas.
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Thanks everyone for the input! I’m going to draft a plan and post the moves soon.
But what if America for the most part ignores Japan.
The Turn I declare war, I’ll clear a path to Western US. With five CVs, my air units alone outnumber what they can build there. Transports bought the turn before can hit BC from The Sea Of Japan. The Following turn I can land all my planes in Alaska. If USA ignores me, I’ll take California. If they continue to ignore me, I’ll take central US.
This is not a Kill-America-First strategy because I know USA will respond (though I think I can crush them if they don’t). But I worry Uncle Sam might devise a reaction that is just cheap enough to not hurt their Europe campaign very much, but just effective enough to make me wish I hadn’t bothered. It might be worth play testing, but first I need to draft a plan I like, (which is coming together as I type).
Also, if Japan attacks (unprovoked) either Anzac or Britain then America may enter the war. … It has seemed to me allowing American in the war any earlier than turn 4 is pretty much dooming the Axis. My opinion though.
Maybe you’re right. Of course USA collects the same on turn three whether you declare or not, but It does let them attack (or poise on the coast of Gibraltar). If USA have built Turns one and two in the Atlantic, despite a J2 occupation of sz26It might be worth letting the into Gibraltar or France early 'cause you’re really going to clobber them.
Also, if Japan focuses, say, 2 turns or so on the Pacific… Asia will get token attention… meaning China and India get to be formidable and extremely difficult to assail.
True, but you’ll get money elsewhere. India probably won’t attack you till turn three, So against just China you should only need a token force (given the size of your air force). If you induce a good reaction from USA you’ll be making your way back to Asia anyway. If you don’t provoke a response you won’t need India or China.
In our games on ANZAC 1 the player always moves his Destroyer up to the Queensland SZ to block a Japanese move to the capital in one move. So to take Aus you have to DoW on J2, then wait until J3 to take it…
The destroyer doesn’t block you as long as you’re not at war. You could move to the Coast of Queensland J2 and declare war and take Queensland at once in J3 (if I go with a J3 attack).
Also Japan doesn’t really threaten allied efforts by taking out aus, so as a US player I think I’d just dump most of my IPC’s into Europe early anyways and put Germany on the defensive before they take the offensive (because of your early DoW)
Yes, that’s the problem with targeting ANZAC - it’s easy money but it doesn’t help that much to get rid of them. The purpose of ANZAC is to provide Japan with some income to take should they decide to pester America. The goal is to draw America away from the Atlantic without bankrupting Japan!
Final thoughts: Sea Lion only seems worth it to me if it can be done on the cheap because the British player did not spend on defense early. Even then I would not try and spend points to hold it from US unless I found a better way for Japan to pressure US. The games in which sea lion was done in our group with Germany investing heavy resources resulted in Germany getting maimed by Russia.
I tend to agree, but if USA is drawn into the Pacific then Germany can afford to spend more on Sea Lion (though I’m not sure how much more). This in turn should raise UK’s minimum budget for homeland defense (at the very least). Regardless I like the idea of drawing America away from Europe with or without Sea Lion, provided Japan isn’t set back (beyond what’s to be expected when USA goes Pacific).
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I like the G4/G5 attack on Russia It lulls the Russians into doing 2 things. Buying less numbers of more expensive units. And sending more tanks/planes/equipment east to fight Japan. They get lulled into a false sense of security.
Russia also seems to pul back from it’s front line on R4, expecting the impending attack, thereby buying Germany another turn NOT to attack, or to feed forward VERY precisely and slowly.
Better to attack the Russian Bear and be Ready, then to attack to early, without the tools to do the job, and run out of gas.
I’d have to say the Russian player who buys very few expensive units (tanks, planes) in 4 turns of not being at war is either inexperienced, daft and foolish, or just rather dumb. Same thing for sending equipment to the east… Why in heaven’s name would one do that? Especially if Japan does what is planned in this thread… dancing around the Pacific … Russia will have no one to fight.
Russia’s best move is to line up his units on the front lines when Germany attacks so as to bleed him as much as possible. Infantry are doubly as good on defense after all.
I know you obviously agree with me on the above 2 Gargantua, but I just think your reasoning for waiting is flawed. Do most of your opponents do these things? Has it worked for you already? If so I’d like to hear how exactly. In a very sincere way. :-)
Germany can afford to attack early if they plan accordingly. They need to make use of what time they have before the US and Britain get mobilized and before Russia can consolidate and buy more. Germany won’t run out of gas early if they have less to go against. Germnay will have to leave some forces to defend France and West Germnay, but early in the game this can be more or less disregarded. Not so later on. So GErmany’s spending will eventually be split between Russia and Western Europe. Neither strategy (wait or don’t wait) is ideal, but I for one think that attacking early is way better than attacking late trying to wade through a mass of Russian forces while the other Allies are giving you all you can handle in the West.
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A Russia who builds exclusively Infantry and Artillery will have more land units than Germany will by G5.
I would absolutely LOVE it if I as Germany faced a Russia with lots of units on the front lines! It would make it easy to carve up Russia’s army piecemeal.
Russia should buy Inf/Artillery and mass into a couple big armies… constantly giving up ground for time. When opportunity arises, counter attack those German tank stacks and you will blunt the German spear.
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As Russia I always send a few things east - you want to delay Japan in China and Siberia to prevent JTDTM.
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A Russia who builds exclusively Infantry and Artillery will have more land units than Germany will by G5.
I would absolutely LOVE it if I as Germany faced a Russia with lots of units on the front lines! It would make it easy to carve up Russia’s army piecemeal.
Russia should buy Inf/Artillery and mass into a couple big armies… constantly giving up ground for time. When opportunity arises, counter attack those German tank stacks and you will blunt the German spear.
how’s that possible?
every round germany has more money than russia, and a lot more starting troosp aswell
so how can USSR have more land units than germany? not even mentioning attacking the german stack… -
Sorry Zooooma, I got this a bit off topic.
As for sending Russian units eastward. The best they can do is go all the way East, above Manchuria/Korea, because unless Japan and Russia engage each other, they are not at war. The rules specify that Russia cannot send units into China unless Russia is at war with Japan. Tanks are quite valuble and really need to be utilized against Germany. I would not send anything eastward unless Germany was on the edge of defeat.
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@Frontovik:
A Russia who builds exclusively Infantry and Artillery will have more land units than Germany will by G5.
I would absolutely LOVE it if I as Germany faced a Russia with lots of units on the front lines! It would make it easy to carve up Russia’s army piecemeal.
Russia should buy Inf/Artillery and mass into a couple big armies… constantly giving up ground for time. When opportunity arises, counter attack those German tank stacks and you will blunt the German spear.
how’s that possible?
every round germany has more money than russia, and a lot more starting troosp aswell
so how can USSR have more land units than germany? not even mentioning attacking the german stack…I haven’t crunched the numbers myself, but this could be possible if Russia buys Cheaper units an Germany buys expensive tanks.
Sorry Zooooma, I got this a bit off topic.
No problem - tangents happen. I found the initial responses quite helpful; besides which I’d planned to start a new thread as soon as I’ve devised a more concrete plan anyway.
As for sending Russian units eastward. The best they can do is go all the way East, above Manchuria/Korea, because unless Japan and Russia engage each other, they are not at war. The rules specify that Russia cannot send units into China unless Russia is at war with Japan.
But you can simply declare war against Japan and then move into China. Really there’s zero drawback in declaring war. You don’t lose a thing, and Japan doesn’t gain.
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But you can simply declare war against Japan and then move into China. Really there’s zero drawback in declaring war. You don’t lose a thing, and Japan doesn’t gain.
True.
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But you can simply declare war against Japan and then move into China. Really there’s zero drawback in declaring war. You don’t lose a thing, and Japan doesn’t gain.
Sounds like a waste of IPC to me. You can stall the Japanese, but if Japan has captured India and DEI… you’ll have two monsters coming after Russia. Probably best to focus on attacking Germany. Plus to note, USA can use northern Russia as a highway to Moscow. You attack Japan, I know I would take Siberia, not hard to mow down 18 inf with Japanese Airforce. Than you’ll be losing IPC… and be severally hurting on both fronts. (Japan will kill India and China, only place left to go with those land units is Russia!)
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But you can simply declare war against Japan and then move into China. Really there’s zero drawback in declaring war. You don’t lose a thing, and Japan doesn’t gain.
Sounds like a waste of IPC to me. You can stall the Japanese, but if Japan has captured India and DEI… you’ll have two monsters coming after Russia. Probably best to focus on attacking Germany. Plus to note, USA can use northern Russia as a highway to Moscow. You attack Japan, I know I would take Siberia, not hard to mow down 18 inf with Japanese Airforce. Than you’ll be losing IPC… and be severally hurting on both fronts. (Japan will kill India and China, only place left to go with those land units is Russia!)
Japan can do all you said whether or not Russia declares war. Russia may as well declare war to capture Persia and Iraq
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