What i ment was, landing a fighter in southern italy.
Idea for a turn 5 axis win. [preventable]
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Operation 5 by 5: Goal acquire 5 victory cities in 5 turns.
Premise: A successful G3 Sealion seems reliable. Why not use board position and maneuver to end the game before America can have a significant impact. This is accomplished by “luring” the USSR into German territories on R4. As a result USSR seldom focuses on rear units.
Given the above scenario, here are the moves. [Conceptual idea, not tested]
[Edit: after more thought, a better plan is about 4 posts down also uses misdirection]
G1 secure Yugoslavia with 4 mech, 8 armor, 1 artillery, 3 infantry. Secure Bulgaria with 2 infantry. Clear UK waters, pull other units to Holland, N. Italy, and W. Germany for a G2 France. Build sea lion navy. {you decide if you want to block navy with a CA in 110}
I1 transport artillery and infantry to Alexandria with Africa force. Move 2 armor to Albania, build 1 fighter.
G2 secure greece with 6 infantry, 4 mech, 8 armor. Build 5 transports for G3. Sealion.
I2 move 2 armor to Greece, Secure Egypt[city 4], build 1 fighter.
G3. Secure Turkey with 4-5 infantry, 4 mech, 8 armor, 1 bomber and 2 tac, lose infantry and air if you need. Keep Mech and armor in tact. Move other land units to coast for UK invasion. Grab UK [City 5]. Build land units Mech for France.
I3 secure Caucasus with 2 armor, 3 air from N. Italy. build mech for Berlin.
G4. Grab France[city 6], build land units in W. Germany, upgrade Berlin. Secure Volgograd [victory city #7] with 8 armor 4 mech, transport surviving UK to Berlin 113.
I4. Land armor and air in Vogograd or retake if needed.
G5. use transports to grab Novgorad[city 8]. build units to defend Berlin. Retake Warsaw.
If you hold 8 cities until G6, you win.
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France is taken on G4?
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If France is not taken G1, then you don’t have the $ to get the TTs you need for Sealion.
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attacking turkey means that Sweden is take by USSR putting pressure on Norway
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I’ve given it more thought. It would be better to fake a USSR first approach, grab France G2 and Egypt I2. Then grab UK[London] round 3[assumes surprise see below]. Volgograd turn 4. Then Poland and Novgorod turn 5. You should have 8 victory cities by turn 5.
If UK stacks land units in London even though you can not hit them, you can cancel G2 and just focus on USSR first if you choose.
G1 Build Fighter,sub,2 artillery, 1 infantry, save 3 IPCs. Hit Yugoslavia with 8 arm, 4 mech, 4 infantry[2 from slovakia, 2 from S. Germ.]. Send 2 inf from W. Germ. to Holland, land air force on Holland after sinking UK fleet, use BB and CA to sink 112 and serve as bait. Move remaining S. Germ. to N. Italy (3 inf, art). 1 S.Germany inf to W. Germany. Denmark inf to W. Germ… 3 art from Germany to Poland[bluff], transport 1 Germ artillery and 1 inf to Finland, have Norway units meet in Finland[Bluff]. Move 6 German inf to W. Germany. 2 Romania inf to Bulgaria. Build sub in 113, rest in W. Germany. Collect 30 +2 Yugo+2 Fin+1 Bulg+5 N/O+3 saved=43 IPCs. Assumes UK does not feel threatened since no transport are in range, UK builds in Africa or Canada as air force and navy discourage UK navy.
I1: build fighter. attack S. France if no UK units with 2 inf, 1 art, 2 fighters, send transport, CA, DD to 98 land art[n.italy] and inf[s.italy] in alexandria with tobruk units. Noncombat N.ITaly armor to Albania. Send Albania infantry to Yugoslavia. S. Italy to N. italy. Land and build air in N. Italy. Collect 11 IPCs
G2: Build 1 naval base, 4 transports. [depends on what France does, assumes fighter goes to UK, rest stay in France.] Send Hollands 5 inf, 1 art, W.Germany’s 8 infantry, 2 artillery, N.Italy’s 4 inf, 1 art, 5 fighters, 3 tacs, 1 bomber into France[16 units defending]. If France is split, take Normandy and S. France if able. Send Bulgaria’s 6 inf, Yugoslavia’s 4 mech, 8 armor into Greece. Move transport to 114, Poland’s 3 art, 3 inf to Germany. Finland’s 7 inf, 1 art to Norway. Land air force in W. Germany. Build naval base in Berlin, and 4 transports in 114 (out of range of UK air, 1 IPC cheaper than a carrier, which means the deception of UK not being first may work.] Collect 43 + 10 N/Os + 14 Plunder= 67 IPCs or 41+5+14=60[which I will use if Normandy is not taken]
[Edit: just noticed that I placed too many transports in Berlin, would have to place 1 in 113, able to be hit by bombers or other air if a carrier is built or moved there. Would have to see what UK did, and decide whether to proceed.].
I2: N.ITaly air clears any UK blocker built/moved to block G3 invasion. Build 1 Tac. Take Egypt. Move 2 Albanian armor to Greece. Retake S. France if needed, likely Germany took it when they hit France. Land and Build air in N. Italy. Collect 18 IPCs.
G3: Build Factory upgrade, 4 artillery, 8 infantry=60 or Factory upgrade, 5 artillery, 9 infantry=67. Transport 4 art (norway,3 berlin), 6 infantry(norway) to London, send 5 fighters, 3 Tac, 1 Bomber to London. Assumes 14 uk land and 5 air units as they would build 10 infantry the turn you build the naval base/fleet. Send 4-5 infantry, 4 Mech, 8 armor into Turkey assumes 1-2 inf lost in Greece. Win Turkey in 2 combat rounds losing 4-5 infantry and living with 4 mech, 8 armor. Grab Normandy if not yours, with French survivors. Land bomber in N. ITaly. Build 3 art Berlin, upgrade Berlin, place rest in W. Germany, surplus in France. Collect 51+10 N/Os plus estimated 30 plunder= 91 IPCs.
I3: Build 6 infantry. Attack Caucasus with 2 arm, 3 fighters, 1 Tac, land in Turkey. If air not needed, you can decide to send to Egypt for defense or France to hit US navy. Collect 20 IPCs.
G4: build 21 infantry, 3 artillery, and 1 carrier. Transport some UK survivors to Berlin or Poland depending on USSR stack location, move other half to Scotland for take back force. Move land units forward to Berlin. Turkey force blitz’s through Caucasus and takes Stalingrad with 8 armor, 4 Mech, 1 Bomber. Move air to N. Italy so it can land in Stalingrad G5: to Help hold it with Italian air and armor maybe. Build 10 infantry in London, 3 artillery, 7 infantry Berlin, Carrier in 113 with transports {w.Germany output}, 4 infantry France. May put less in Berlin and more in France depending on board layout. Collect 55+15=70 max, -13 if USSR prevents 1 NO and has 8 German zones. [57 IPCs]
G5: Take Poland and Lenningrad with Transports, Retake UK if needed from Scotland.
You now have 8 cities, unless allies takes Novgorod, Volgograd, London, France or Rome, the game ends. May be possible to use Italian air to hold Egypt, London, or a Russian city.
Seem like a quick game?
By not building a sea lion, hopefully the ruse will work and the UK builds elsewhere and hits Italian fleet, which you won’t need. If the UK builds land, you will have to cancel G2, but you won’t be game over at that point, still a game.
The naval base G2 is cheaper than a carrier, surprising and enables the transports to be out of range of UK air including UK bombers since you won’t have the BB and CA to defend with. If you are lucky, UK will attack a damaged BB, Ca with its 3 fithers and tac, sending the carrier a CA, DD, and Fighter against Italy’s fleet. That will cost UK some air defenders in a best case scenario.
Since the German units in Yugoslavia can link up with the 6 units in Poland to attack E. Poland G2, USSR may not want to stack units there and might go defensive builds, since it appears you are not doing a sea lion and are heading towards them. Maybe causing UK to lower their guard.
The transports in 114 may be missed by a novice UK although the naval base should raise alarm. France falls for sure on G2. You could build the naval base G1, and hope the transports in 114 later will go unnoticed. But I would not recommend that.
The G3 assault on Turkey could be a surprise to the Russians, as you are not lined up to hit any other neutrals, and normally a Neutral activation is frowned upon. They might think you were heading back north with them after Greece. Meaning the 6-9 units they could stage in Stalingrad may not be there. Also, by opening up the true neutrals, if the US activates Spain US4, you can fly over Spain from N. Italy or France with the German air to sink the US Fleet.
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Normally UK won’t fall in this trap so easily. Then again, if UK is careless, then your naval base idea & SZ114 is a good surprise trick. Best to keep an eye on French surviving ships that can block your way to the UK
If no imminent threat for a sealion you can expect UK to build units (it just needs more people in it’s homeland), possible a sub (usually safe to buy them and if not in heavy action they will come raid you) and/or air force. Fighters are good defence and they can go pick off weak fleets and transports. Purchase will depend abit on the situation.
Maybe a little bit in S.Af (i’d wait at least until the next turn) but UK should be top priority, especially in the first 2 turns…
UK also won’t ever build in Canada (well it shouldn’t, at least). Canada is out of the question for me (even for fleet building i think it is better to just save those IPC’s for next turn, at least that way you keep germany in the dark about your next purchases)
(even if UK does want to build a fleet, it is better to buy air force first, and later buy an AC and land existing planes on it)In short: a good Brit should be paranoid and conservative :)
Also, by opening up the true neutrals, if the US activates Spain US4, you can fly over Spain from N. Italy or France with the German air to sink the US Fleet.
Yes you can sink their fleet, but can you kill off the ground forces?
The Turkey 1-2 is quite clever (Germany opening the strait for Italy - if it has any fleet left - or over land with tanks from greece), Italy opening Caucasus for Germany to run through. nasty!
But, if you take Turkey in turn 3, USA will indeed take Spain (and Portugal) in turn 4 (if it is alert and knows the Axis air foce can destroy them, they’ll probably sacrifice the transports and still take Spain. If Axis does this, it will be wise to have enough forces closeby Spain. if Axis can’t take it back right away, and UK lives there will be an IC there next turn, as well as a 2nd wave of americans, and (if there are any left) some brittish fighters as extra defence.
But also UK (fallen or not) will get 4 units for free in Africa and a handful in the Middle East (all places where UK can really use some extra forces). Might be an expensive shortcut. Then again, if you’re fast enough…It is as you say: preventable. But not impossible.
But it’s very hard to guess enemy purchases, moves and counter attacks over 5 turns and often things don’t do as planned. -
@special:
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The Turkey 1-2 is quite clever (Germany opening the strait for Italy - if it has any fleet left - or over land with tanks from greece), Italy opening Caucasus for Germany to run through. nasty! {Response: Thanks, I like to create “sudden” problems for the allies :evil: }
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It is as you say: preventable. But not impossible.
But it’s very hard to guess enemy purchases, moves and counter attacks over 5 turns and often things don’t do as planned.Thank you for your insights. As I expected, if UK does what you say[secures London], you will have to scrap the plan and play normally, at that point, you won’t have a sea lion threat, your build was 1 fighter, 1 sub, 2 art and 1 inf, with 3 saved. Its not ideal, but you can come back from the bad position of taking France turn 2. [Note: I have not play tested this yet, I will and then I’ll report problems I find]
As to Spain and the US. Basically, this is a “race” strategy. It is a gamble [perhaps too risky] to end the game on F5. Having the US stacked in Spain, Normandy,S. France or N. Italy will not matter if the game ends. All that would matter is London, Rome and Berlin as I believe that is the closets America can get on Turn 5. Hence the later infantry builds on I3 I think it was.
Its very hard to guess enemy purchases, and I would not dare to say I can predict the allies first 4 turns of production (the ones to matter). However, I have a feel for the game, and based on what I’ve seen. The USSR typically builds land units vs a fleet. So the threat will be mostly ground based. UK when left alone in my games, seldom tries a fleet in the Atlantic, they have focused on Africa/Middle East until the US can arrive with a fleet to protect their Atlantic builds. Finally the US typically builds more transports then warships if there is no viable sea threat, with 105 IPCs[turns 1-3] you can expect maybe 5-6 transports or 10-12 land units. It is hoped, that the true threat of the game ending will not be obvious, with a strong Moscow their is a chance for the US to take the “bait” by moving a transport or 2 to S. America which will leave less in position for a turn 5 take back of London.
Given the above response, I think this plan “could” work. It is definitely preventable, I wanted to stress that in the title, so as not to over estimate this plans effectiveness or lead people to believe there was a game breaking or new “standard” plan.
With all that said, it is possible to “tweak” some of the planned purchases for Germany, based on the threat that USSR is to Berlin. You may get away with a G4 capture of London[which assumes you build more transports] but it would take a G4 purchase of additional transports to capture Novgorod turn 5 and that would leave Europe dangerously thin on land units. It would depend on how strong Russia is in the West. They also may stack heavily in the South to deal with Volgograd and once the Turkey task force is depleted, this creates another route to failure.
If UK builds heavily[1 transport, 1 art,1 armor, 1 minor F. W.India] in Africa turn 1 with Persia activated UK1; Egypt will possibly be in doubt by turn 3 because of the 2 transports and 5 land units that will be poised to strike for the first turn build. Note a factory purchase turn 1 is not likely to be used after the Germans build the naval base and transports.
Put simply, a conservative USSR or UK will foil this strategy, Germany will have the opportunity to change course if they see USSR stacking in the South, or North V-City and UK stacking in London turn 1. Until they capture Turkey, German can abort and focus on a USSR first. [perhaps with a factory build on G2 to “catch” up.] In fact, a G2 assault on Russia would be viable if they stacked away from the front.
Anyway, this is just a strategy that “may” give you more options for your German arsenal.
I welcome additional comments, maybe we can devise a better plan based on further observations. -
Indeed that strategy is a race against time!
Ah, one more thing, if you want to attack Leningrad by water you’ll need to deal with the Russian battleship. And that one will likely be in SZ114 (that is where i usually put mine)
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@special:
Indeed that strategy is a race against time!
Ah, one more thing, if you want to attack Leningrad by water you’ll need to deal with the Russian battleship. And that one will likely be in SZ114 (that is where i usually put mine)
It can be hit from Z127
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Ah ok he’d be going around. Fair enough.
Transport some UK survivors to Berlin or Poland depending on USSR stack location (…) Carrier in 113 with transports {w.Germany output}
made me think he meant to attack with those. If so, they can’t reach it going around (at least not that turn)
It’s kinda hard overseeing everything without an actual map (with units on it) in front of my nose
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@special:
Ah ok he’d be going around. Fair enough.
Transport some UK survivors to Berlin or Poland depending on USSR stack location (…) Carrier in 113 with transports {w.Germany output}
made me think he meant to attack with those. If so, they can’t reach it going around (at least not that turn)
It’s kinda hard overseeing everything without an actual map (with units on it) in front of my nose
You are correct, I do plan on hitting Novgorod through sz 115. I intend to hit the Battleship with 1 sub[built G1], and surviving air force on G4. If London has fallen. Then capture Novgorod and Warsaw turn 5 and hang on tight. Warsaw by land, Novgorod by sea.
If they land in Spain turn 4 as you were concerned, I expect no more than 10-12 units there, which assumes a weak fleet that can fall to air. Again, they can “walk” to Normandy or S. France on USA5 [when the game ends], but without their “main” transport fleet, UK is secure, Rome is secure, France is Secure. If there is a round 6, then you have to squish them on G6 if they have the gall to move next to a France factory. [But by then, its ugly if you haven’t ended the game.]
Actually, this win would not be military win, just a “technical rules written win”. A bit of a dry flavor aftertaste, but a win after all. Requires a lot of risk for this “reward”. And it won’t work on that player again :)
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You are correct, I do plan on hitting Novgorod through sz 115. I intend to hit the Battleship with 1 sub[built G1], and surviving air force on G4. If London has fallen. Then capture Novgorod and Warsaw turn 5 and hang on tight. Warsaw by land, Novgorod by sea.
If they land in Spain turn 4 as you were concerned, I expect no more than 10-12 units there, which assumes a weak fleet that can fall to air. Again, they can “walk” to Normandy or S. France on USA5 [when the game ends], but without their “main” transport fleet, UK is secure, Rome is secure, France is Secure. If there is a round 6, then you have to squish them on G6 if they have the gall to move next to a France factory. [But by then, its ugly if you haven’t ended the game.]
Concerned is not the exact term maybe, as i usually play the Allies :-)
As for US fleet, as USA i prefer to wait a turn longer (when the situation allows) and come with a fleet that can withstand an axis attack (USA has money, but not enough to throw it away).
After 3 turns USA can get a fleet together of about 1 BB, AC + 2 FIG and 5 TRP’s (add existing DD and TRP and perhaps the brittish CRU from brazil), that is a fleet with a defence of 4/4/4/3/2/2 and 2 soakers. Sounds solid, i think. Unless Axis are heavy on air, but even then it can cost them alot of air units… Might also decide to throw in a few subs instead of soemthing else. (cheaper fodder in case german subs join the air attack)Anyhow, as USA i prefer to start with a strong fleet that can last (i found out that sening small teams in a hurry just results in not really accomplishing anything…), and then adding more waves of transporters with men to them.
If your strategy is on schedule this will indeed not be a piece of cake. Also here the fact that UK has fallen or not will play an important roll, ehh, role…)So let’s say USA drops about 8 ground units in Spain (getting 6 spanish INF extra) and 2 in portugal, that means 14 + 2 INF in the nearby neighbourhood. They might be too late, but some bad dice or strong countermoves might cost you a turn as well, so it will be quite the race. But as a plan it’s certainly valid!
Actually, this win would not be military win, just a “technical rules written win”. A bit of a dry flavor aftertaste, but a win after all. Requires a lot of risk for this “reward”. And it won’t work on that player again :)
But winning in style with some clever tricks and surprises makes up for that. i wouldn’t mind losing to soemthing like that.
… now i probably won’t as i have seen these possibilities :-D
By the way you said you haven’t playtested it yet, will you do this soon? Because i’d be interested to hear about the results .
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This sure will be one heck of a ride, should I find a Guinea pig. Until then I will have to set up my board and run though an example game. Currently I have an unfinished Global game (second one played this weekend) that I want to play out a few more “what if” rounds. Since the guys had to leave. I tried KJF Saturday/11 hours and KGF Sunday/8 hours. Both used J1 attacks.
Once I finish a few more rounds, I will set up my Europe board and run through the risks this weekend.
Obviously, its a dicey plan. If I fail to take UK, its over. If I fail to hold 8 cities its also over.
Unfortunately, since I host our meetup.com group, I usually defer to their country preference. Everyone wants to play axis right now, so I’ve been running one or more allied countries. I’m looking forward to playing Germany.
Since I hit UK turn 3, I’m not sure what will be alive as far as air force goes. If I have 8 or more air (as I built 1 G1) then I might engage the fleet you mentioned, It would depend on what I had in UK and Rome. I prefer defending as I “hate” fleet battles. Too expensive to leave up to Lady Luck. I only engage fleets when “forced”. If I won’t need the air units to take Novgorod, I’d place 4 in London and Rome to help hold from the 10-12 US land units that can hit turn 5. I suspect a US4 assault on UK is possible, but with fewer transports. Likely 4-8 units or a sacrificial transport fleet and 10-12 units.
[by the way, in Global we traded Moscow for Japan “bottled” to zero IPCs/no-navy/16air and won first game, second game I went Germany first and it looked a lot scarier. Germany was collecting 25-28 IPCs(US had Norwal Maj.Complx) and had “turtled” the whole game. USSR was getting 49 IPCs but did not get the 6 IPCs/GermanZone as Japan had the east USSR. Italy won Africa and was at 35 IPCs. US at 90. India was at 4, London at 20-26 depending on landings. Japan was at 73 IPCs without India/Hawaii/or Sydney we called it after a complete turn 5 after 8 hours].
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If France isn’t taken by turn 1 Germany is in trouble and the UK will thank you for leaving France intact. Also the USA would collect all of South America if you hit a Netural nation like Turkey. There are a lot of other holes in the plan…you assuming above average dice rolling which can’t be assumed. Your also assuming the Russian player is stupid and doesn’t figure out your plan and move to counter it. Because all Russia really has to do is hold on and wait for the USA to arrive to help. This tactic wouldn’t work on me as a USA player because I would be sitting in Rome turn 5 especially with Italy having no fleet in the med I would just park my fleet in the med and let you take pot shots at it with fighters(that would be fighters you wouldn’t be able to use to help take the other VC).
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