@captain:
Yes the sub can still cause disruption , but if a German sub is there then Russia doesn’t get the 5 pu bonus NO money because there is a warship in 125.
Correct, but then UK move a destroyer there, and then we have the ball going on……
Submarines in a Convoy Sea Zone
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Exactly,
Now you know where the confusion comes from. The same act brings both parties into the war. One has to make a formal DOW in its own turn, the other is considered at war upon the attack. It is a double standard. If the same act puts the US into the war, why do they have to wait? You know they are going to declare war, it is as you say just ceremonial.Any way I won’t argue the ruling any further (I can see how it came to be), just wanted to show the source of the confusion.
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@WILD:
Exactly,
Now you know where the confusion comes from. The same act brings both parties into the war. One has to make a formal DOW in its own turn, the other is considered at war upon the attack. It is a double standard. If the same act puts the US into the war, why do they have to wait? You know they are going to declare war, it is as you say just ceremonial.Any way I won’t argue the ruling any further (I can see how it came to be), just wanted to show the source of the confusion.
No, this is a completely different matter. Declaring war on the UK does NOT bring the US into the war. It permits the US to declare war against Japan on the US turn. Of course, the US will, because it gives them cash, but they are NOT in the war before then. Japan can declare war against the UK, and as long as it’s not choosing to declare war on the US, it can move through a seazone containing a US ship and ignore it completely (the US cannot block it), or fight a battle in a seazone containing UK/ANZAC and US ships and the US ships are not part of the battle and will remain in the seazone afterwards.
There is a great deal of confusion on that rule too though (not being REQUIRED to declare war on the US in order to attack a UK space) and it’s miswritten in this way on Mickelson’s setup sheets.
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@WILD:
OK, if Japan attacks the UK (unprovoked) it brings the US into the war right.
No. It allows the US to declare war on its turn.
@WILD:
Does the US have to first declare war in the beginning of its turn, or is it just a formality (purely ceremonial) and isn’t needed.
It must declare war, as it is not yet at war.
@WILD:
In other words on J2 Japan attacks only the UK. The UK & US both have 1 sub in a Jap convoy zone, that Japan can’t kill. In the collect income phase of the same Jap turn, does it cost them 4 ipc’s?
No, it costs 2 IPCs, for the UK sub. Japan is not at war with the US at that point.
Ok, so basically, if the USA is not attacked, it has to declare war before it can take any war actions. However, if the USA is attacks (lets say on J2), then it is immediately brought into the war and essentially acts as if its at war starting J2 (meaning, in WILD BILL’s example, if Japan did a J2 and hit the USA somewhere, and there was a UK and USA sub in a Jap Convoy zone that Japan cant kill, does that mean Japan loses 4 on its turn?
Also:
If I’m attacked at Pearl on J2 and I have ships with men located adjacent to Quebec, can I immediately land units in UK on USA2? If I wasn’t attacked and instead had to wait, the earliest I could move my men would be USA4 correct? (DOW on USA3, but since no attack has occured, I DOW at the end of my turn and THEN do war moves on USA4).
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Ok, so basically, if the USA is not attacked, it has to declare war before it can take any war actions. However, if the USA is attacks (lets say on J2), then it is immediately brought into the war and essentially acts as if its at war starting J2 (meaning, in WILD BILL’s example, if Japan did a J2 and hit the USA somewhere, and there was a UK and USA sub in a Jap Convoy zone that Japan cant kill, does that mean Japan loses 4 on its turn?
Correct.
If I’m attacked at Pearl on J2 and I have ships with men located adjacent to Quebec, can I immediately land units in UK on USA2? If I wasn’t attacked and instead had to wait, the earliest I could move my men would be USA4 correct? (DOW on USA3, but since no attack has occured, I DOW at the end of my turn and THEN do war moves on USA4).
Also correct.
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There is a great deal of confusion on that rule too though (not being REQUIRED to declare war on the US in order to attack a UK space) and it’s miswritten in this way on Mickelson’s setup sheets.
OK, I can see that there’s confusion. What I don’t see is why there’s confusion. As far as I can see, the rules are clear on these points. What is it about the rules themselves (not people’s perceptions) that is unclear?
Also, if the rules are clear, why do you think that people are confused about these issues?
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For starters the first line, second paragraph in the US out line (Europe pg 34) under “The Political Situation” states:
“The US may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis power declares war on it first, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers”.
This insinuates (to me) that the US needs to declare war on one or all axis powers. It doesn’t say any thing about when to do it, or that war now exist between the US and the power that declared war (did attack) immediately. Further more it doesn’t state that the US must wait until its turn to declare war on the other two axis powers either. When it says the US has to declare war I would take it as being on the US turn for all.
2nd, pg #35 under US (political situation global rules) middle of the second paragraph.
“If the US has war declared on it by an Axis power or Japan makes an unprovoked declaration of war on the UK or Anzac, the US may declare war on any or all Axis powers”.
This insinuates (to me) the same as above. It clearly says the US can declare war on any or all axis powers in both situations. It doesn’t tell you when to declare war (now or on your turn) it groups them all into the same lump. It says nothing about being at a state of war (a mutual DOW) with the power that declared war on you and attacked.
Then when you add in the side bar on pg 15 “Powers that Begin the Game Neutral” This is where I get the declare war on your turn. Its the only time I saw in the rules that you can declare war.
Now I get the meaning now through these discussions, but not through the rules as written. If I have missed an important part in the political rules please point it out.
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If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?
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That was my next question, dealing with Euro axis vs Japan. If Germany declares war on US G3 and attacks (Jap will attack only UK/Dutch J3), does a US sub in a Jap convoy (that Jap can’t remove) cost Jap convoy disruption? I know this would be strange for Jap not to attack the US, but maybe they don’t have enough tpt’s to take all the DEI, and the Phil.
I’m assuming it doesn’t because the US wasn’t attacked by Jap, and has to give them an official DOW on the US turn.
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If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?
This question adds more fuel to the fire. Calvin doesn’t usually have much trouble interpreting the rules. He is normally setting people straight.
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There are two ways to find yourself at war:
- being attacked, which automatically results in a mutual state of war (no such thing as a one-way war)
- declare war yourself, which sometimes depends on a set of conditions
… and that’s all I need to know!
:-D
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@WILD:
Then when you add in the side bar on pg 15 “Powers that Begin the Game Neutral” This is where I get the declare war on your turn. Its the only time I saw in the rules that you can declare war.
How many times do the rules need to state the procedure for declaring war? Does it need to be restated at every mention of the conditions under which a power may do so?
@WILD:
“The US may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis power declares war on it first, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers”.
This insinuates that the US needs to declare war on one or all axis powers.
If Japan declares war on the US, the US is at war with Japan only. If the US wishes to be at war with Germany and/or Italy, it must declare war on them. This rule gives it permission to do so.
@WILD:
It doesn’t say any thing about when to do it,
See above.
@WILD:
or that war now exist between the US and the power that declared war (did attack) immediately.
OK, I’ll grant that this isn’t explicitly stated, but isn’t it strongly implied? “Once war is declared, all territories and sea zones containing units belonging to the power or powers on which war is declared instantly become hostile”. To me, this sounds like you’re at war.
@WILD:
Further more it doesn’t state that the US must wait until its turn to declare war on the other two axis powers either. When it says the US has to declare war I would take it as being on the US turn for all.
Again, see above.
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There are two ways to find yourself at war:
- being attacked, which automatically results in a mutual state of war (no such thing as a one-way war)
- declare war yourself, which sometimes depends on a set of conditions
… and that’s all I need to know!
:-D
Yes 100% correct. I get that. If the rules had that statement then there would be no discussion.
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If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?
The US must wait until its turn to declare war, just like everyone else. A declaration of war by one Axis power does not immediately result in war with all Axis powers.
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If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?
The US must wait until its turn to declare war, just like everyone else. A declaration of war by one Axis power does not immediately result in war with all Axis powers.
So the only time a country can DOW on someone else’s turn is if the country whose turn it is has just declared war on it or in the case of UK/ANZAC where one power declaring war on japan(either on their turn or Japan’s turn) leads to the other declaring war as well
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Technically, neither of those situations requires a declaration of war by the passive player. The powers involved are at war by virtue of the acting player’s declaration.
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Technically, neither of those situations requires a declaration of war by the passive player. The powers involved are at war by virtue of the acting player’s declaration.
So a DOW isn’t always needed to be at war
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One is needed by one party involved, but not by all parties. If you declare war on me, we’re at war with each other.
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Krieg, I understand now the meaning behind the political rules through these discussions (I really do appreciated your commitment and patients). I understand that when an enemy power declares war on you, that it is a mutual DOW between you and that power only (exception UK/Anz). It is up to you (if you want to) to declare war on the other powers in the enemy alliance on your turn. Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through DOW and attacking one of your allies, that you can declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers. I think there may need to be a clarification in the FAQ however to aid other players for the good of the game. At least spell out that being directly attacked is a mutual DOW, and when to declare war w/other triggers.
Thanks again for your attention to this.
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@WILD:
Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through attacking one of your allies, that you must also declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers.
This is false. The US doesn’t have to declare war on germany even if Japan DOWd them. if Japan makes an unprovoked attack on UK, US doesn’t have to declare war on anyone. Hell, it doesn’t even have to declare war at the end of turn 3.
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@WILD:
Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through attacking one of your allies, that you must also declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers.
This is false. The US doesn’t have to declare war on germany even if Japan DOWd them. if Japan makes an unprovoked attack on UK, US doesn’t have to declare war on anyone. Hell, it doesn’t even have to declare war at the end of turn 3.
I did not say your next turn. If you want to go to war with the others in the enemy alliance, you do it on your turn. It could be 2 turns from now, but it would still be your turn, unless they attack you before then (then there’s an auto DOW w/that power).
I changed the must to can just for you (LOL)
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