Submarines in a Convoy Sea Zone

[calvinhobbesliker]

If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?

[WILD BILL]

That was my next question, dealing with Euro axis vs Japan. If Germany declares war on US G3 and attacks (Jap will attack only UK/Dutch J3), does a US sub in a Jap convoy (that Jap can’t remove) cost Jap convoy disruption? I know this would be strange for Jap not to attack the US, but maybe they don’t have enough tpt’s to take all the DEI, and the Phil.

I’m assuming it doesn’t because the US wasn’t attacked by Jap, and has to give them an official DOW on the US turn.

[WILD BILL]

@calvinhobbesliker:

If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?

This question adds more fuel to the fire. Calvin doesn’t usually have much trouble interpreting the rules. He is normally setting people straight.

[Latro]

There are two ways to find yourself at war:

• being attacked, which automatically results in a mutual state of war (no such thing as a one-way war)
• declare war yourself, which sometimes depends on a set of conditions

… and that’s all I need to know!

:-D

[Krieghund]

@WILD:

Then when you add in the side bar on pg 15 “Powers that Begin the Game Neutral”  This is where I get the declare war on your turn. Its the only time I saw in the rules that you can declare war.

How many times do the rules need to state the procedure for declaring war?  Does it need to be restated at every mention of the conditions under which a power may do so?

@WILD:

“The US may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis power declares war on it first, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers”.

This insinuates that the US needs to declare war on one or all axis powers.

If Japan declares war on the US, the US is at war with Japan only.  If the US wishes to be at war with Germany and/or Italy, it must declare war on them.  This rule gives it permission to do so.

@WILD:

It doesn’t say any thing about when to do it,

See above.

@WILD:

or that war now exist between the US and the power that declared war (did attack) immediately.

OK, I’ll grant that this isn’t explicitly stated, but isn’t it strongly implied?  “Once war is declared, all territories and sea zones containing units belonging to the power or powers on which war is declared instantly become hostile”.  To me, this sounds like you’re at war.

@WILD:

Further more it doesn’t state that the US must wait until its turn to declare war on the other two axis powers either. When it says the US has to declare war I would take it as being on the US turn for all.

Again, see above.

[WILD BILL]

@Latro:

There are two ways to find yourself at war:

• being attacked, which automatically results in a mutual state of war (no such thing as a one-way war)
• declare war yourself, which sometimes depends on a set of conditions

… and that’s all I need to know!

:-D

Yes 100% correct. I get that. If the rules had that statement then there would be no discussion.

[Krieghund]

@calvinhobbesliker:

If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?

The US must wait until its turn to declare war, just like everyone else.  A declaration of war by one Axis power does not immediately result in war with all Axis powers.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Krieghund:

@calvinhobbesliker:

If Japan DOW’s the US, does the US immediately go to war against Germany/Italy, or can Italy pass through US ships for one turn?

The US must wait until its turn to declare war, just like everyone else.  A declaration of war by one Axis power does not immediately result in war with all Axis powers.

So the only time a country can DOW on someone else’s turn is if the country whose turn it is has just declared war on it or in the case of UK/ANZAC where one power declaring war on japan(either on their turn or Japan’s turn) leads to the other declaring war as well

[Krieghund]

Technically, neither of those situations requires a declaration of war by the passive player.  The powers involved are at war by virtue of the acting player’s declaration.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Krieghund:

Technically, neither of those situations requires a declaration of war by the passive player.  The powers involved are at war by virtue of the acting player’s declaration.

So a DOW isn’t always needed to be at war

[Krieghund]

One is needed by one party involved, but not by all parties.  If you declare war on me, we’re at war with each other.

[WILD BILL]

Krieg, I understand now the meaning behind the political rules through these discussions (I really do appreciated your commitment and patients). I understand that when an enemy power declares war on you, that it is a mutual DOW between you and that power only (exception UK/Anz). It is up to you (if you want to) to declare war on the other powers in the enemy alliance on your turn. Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through DOW and attacking one of your allies, that you can declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers. I think there may need to be a clarification in the FAQ however to aid other players for the good of the game. At least spell out that being directly attacked is a mutual DOW, and when to declare war w/other triggers.

Thanks again for your attention to this.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@WILD:

Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through attacking one of your allies, that you must also declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers.

This is false. The US doesn’t have to declare war on germany even if Japan DOWd them. if Japan makes an unprovoked attack on UK, US doesn’t have to declare war on anyone. Hell, it doesn’t even have to declare war at the end of turn 3.

[WILD BILL]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@WILD:

Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through attacking one of your allies, that you must also declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers.

This is false. The US doesn’t have to declare war on germany even if Japan DOWd them. if Japan makes an unprovoked attack on UK, US doesn’t have to declare war on anyone. Hell, it doesn’t even have to declare war at the end of turn 3.

I did not say your next turn. If you want to go to war with the others in the enemy alliance, you do it on your turn. It could be 2 turns from now, but it would still be your turn, unless they attack you before then (then there’s an auto DOW w/that power).

I changed the must to can just for you (LOL)

[calvinhobbesliker]

@WILD:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@WILD:

Further more if the enemy triggers an act of war w/you, through attacking one of your allies, that you must also declare war on your turn (was no direct attack on you) in case of the USA, or other powers with such triggers.

This is false. The US doesn’t have to declare war on germany even if Japan DOWd them. if Japan makes an unprovoked attack on UK, US doesn’t have to declare war on anyone. Hell, it doesn’t even have to declare war at the end of turn 3.

I did not say your next turn. If you want to go to war with the others in the enemy alliance, you do it on your turn. It could be 2 turns from now, but it would still be your turn, unless they attack you before then (then there’s an auto DOW w/that power).

I changed the must to can just for you (LOL)

Good. Technically, the US could never be at war for the entire game if none of the axis declare war on it

[WILD BILL]

I have another question concerning China (just making sure I have it right). UK moves a unit into China. Rules say that Jap considers this an act of war against it. Jap wasn’t directly attacked though, so it would have to declare war on its own turn when it comes around (if it wants to). If there are Jap ships in UK/Anz convoys at the time they would not be able to raid them right (until after Jap gives its official DOW in the future). So for this turn (when UK moved into China), the UK/Anz would not need to worry about the convoy zones.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@WILD:

I have another question concerning China (just making sure I have it right). UK moves a unit into China. Rules say that Jap considers this an act of war against it. Jap wasn’t directly attacked though, so it would have to declare war on its own turn when it comes around (if it wants to). If there are Jap ships in UK/Anz convoys at the time they would not be able to raid them right (until after Jap gives its official DOW in the future). So for this turn (when UK moved into China), the UK/Anz would not need to worry about the convoy zones.

I think the rule is “Japan considers movement into China as a DOW against it.” Thus, you’d have to declare war on Japan to move into China

[Krieghund]

@WILD:

I think there may need to be a clarification in the FAQ however to aid other players for the good of the game. At least spell out that being directly attacked is a mutual DOW, and when to declare war w/other triggers.

I believe that I agree.  How’s this:

Q.  If another power declares war on my power, am I at war with that power immediately, or do I have to declare war on my turn?
A.  Your power is at war immediately, but only with the power that declared war on it.  You must wait until your turn to make any declarations of war on other powers that were enabled by that declaration.  For example, if Germany declares war on the United States, the United States is immediately at war with Germany, but it must wait until its turn to declare war on Italy.

[Krieghund]

@WILD:

I have another question concerning China (just making sure I have it right). UK moves a unit into China. Rules say that Jap considers this an act of war against it. Jap wasn’t directly attacked though, so it would have to declare war on its own turn when it comes around (if it wants to). If there are Jap ships in UK/Anz convoys at the time they would not be able to raid them right (until after Jap gives its official DOW in the future). So for this turn (when UK moved into China), the UK/Anz would not need to worry about the convoy zones.

Statements about “acts of war” in the rules are just “flavor” text.  If you look at UK’s political rules, you’ll see that it’s not allowed to move units into China without first declaring war on Japan.

[WILD BILL]

@Krieghund:

@WILD:

I think there may need to be a clarification in the FAQ however to aid other players for the good of the game. At least spell out that being directly attacked is a mutual DOW, and when to declare war w/other triggers.

I believe that I agree.  How’s this:

Q.  If another power declares war on my power, am I at war with that power immediately, or do I have to declare war on my turn?
A.  Your power is at war immediately, but only with the power that declared war on it.  You must wait until your turn to make any declarations of war on other powers that were enabled by that declaration.  For example, if Germany declares war on the United States, the United States is immediately at war with Germany, but it must wait until its turn to declare war on Italy.

I think that clears it up quite nicely