The other Strict Neutrals become Friendly to the other side. Any power of the opposite alliance has to move a ground unit (not AA) into each one to make them join that power, one at a time, as per the Allied or Axis Friendly rules .
I hope that clears it up for you.
UK1 @ SZ 95 scenario question
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Aren’t you using any planes against France?
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Not if i was going for a Sealion. If i was going for Russia i might to keep a few more land units in the battle of France.
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I see I made a typo too, I meant to ask, why do you think UK has 2 BB’s and 2 CA’s left after G1?
Now, you state that UK will still attack with 2 BB’s, 1 CA, 1 DD…… They won’t have so much left after G1 either.
If the Luftwaffe and the U-boats do their work properly, you have 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD, 1 tactical and 1 CV to counter the German SZ 112 fleet making it (4,3,3,2,0) against (4,4,4,3,2,1). Now how are those odds?? Attacking that is playing like my son of 18 months.
Plus you forget that by placing the CV with the French in SZ93 you can shuttle the Egyptian fighter + the tactical you start with to UK on turn 2 to defend against a turn 3 Sea Lion (of course they have to survive the attack against the Italian BB-fleet).
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Planes against France are not needed.
As Germany if you do not get rid of the 3 UK FTR’s in UK on turn 1, then there will be no Sea Lion.
With your attack, Uk will have 3 FTR’s, 2 INF, plus 50/50 1 INF and 1 ARM from Quebec, plus 9 INF it builds in UK=12INF, 3FTR’s defending Sea Lion…possibly add an extra INF and ARM. Assuming you built 2 TRS with Germany…giving you 3 total you can have: 3INF, 3ARM, BB, probably 5 aircraft(minus 1 from your SZ110 attack, and minus one from AA when you make the attack on UK.
Round 1:
UK: 12INF at 2, 3FTR’s at 4(lets say no TRS from Quebec)…should be 6 hits vs Germany(3INF, 2ARM, 1FTR).
vs
Germany: 3INF at 1, 3ARM at 3, 1BB at 4(once), 1 Bomber, 2 TAC’s, 2 FTR’s…should be about 6 hits(just short, but I’ll give it to you(UK loses 6 INF).Round2:
UK: 6INF at 2, 3 FTR’s at 4…should be 4 hits(all German air gone if you want to take UK).
vs
Germany: 1ARM at 3, 1Bomber at 4, 1TAC at 4, 1 TAC at 3, 1FTR at 3…should be about 3 hits(UK loses 3 INF)Round3:
UK: 3INF at 2, 3 FTR’s at 4…should be 3 hits(Last German unit gone, Sea Lion fails)
vs
Germany 1ARM at 3…maybe UK loses 1INF.Sea Lion fails, and thats without your 50/50 attack on the DD/TRS off of Quebec. Not good.
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I’m not suggesting attacking the German fleet without the CV/TAC and DD from Gibraltar…they are key in that attack.
I would never do a Sea Lion turn 3 as Germany…thats what Dani is suggesting.
My attack on the German fleet is: 2BB, 1CA, 2DD, 1TAC, 1CV(4,4,3,3,2,2,0)
vs
1BB, 1CA, 1CV, 2FTR, 1SUB(4,4,4,3,2,2)UK has 3 soak-offs, Germany 2. 50/50 battle from my perspective…this is why I would consider building a SUB rather than an extra TRS as Germany…which would make Sea Lion tougher since as Germany I would have 2 less ground units vs the 9 UK INF.
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Turn 1(UK)…attack German fleet in SZ112:
Germany= 1CV(2FTR’s), 1BB(damaged?), 1CA, 1SUB, 3TRS.[4,4,4,3,2,2].
vs
UK= 1CV(1TAC), 2BB’s, 2CA’s, 1DD.[4,4,3,3,3,2]How is that 20%??? Looks like 50% to me.
Germany should never let its fleet get attacked. If Denmark is axis, then the UK ships cant reach it.
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I’m not suggesting attacking the German fleet without the CV/TAC and DD from Gibraltar…they are key in that attack.
I would never do a Sea Lion turn 3 as Germany…thats what Dani is suggesting.
My attack on the German fleet is: 2BB, 1CA, 2DD, 1TAC, 1CV(4,4,3,3,2,2,0)
vs
1BB, 1CA, 1CV, 2FTR, 1SUB(4,4,4,3,2,2)UK has 3 soak-offs, Germany 2. 50/50 battle from my perspective…this is why I would consider building a SUB rather than an extra TRS as Germany…which would make Sea Lion tougher since as Germany I would have 2 less ground units vs the 9 UK INF.
For the second time I ask you, why do you keep believing that UK will have 2 BB’s, 1CA and 2 DD’s left after G1???
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I would not go for the G2 Sealion, I would build a bunch of TRS in G2 and w8 for G3.
If you attack the UK with your air, how much would survive. 1 is taken out by aa and maybe another 2-3 by the units in the UK. That leaves you with 4 air units. The UK can then block the north route around England with 1 DD, build 1 fig and 2 dd and put them with the rest of the fleet in 110. That would be 2 BB, 1 AC, 1 CA, 3 DD, 1 fig, 1 tac. Chanses that you get to invade are not that good. I do not think there is a way to get good odds on the UK in a G2 Sea lion, i think the G3 is the way to go if you want to do it. It has to cost more then 1 AC and 2 TRS to do a Sea lion or it would be to good.
When it comes to Egypt i would not land with troops in Transjordan as they are easy to kill for the UK. If the Italians mass all. If the fleet moves the Italians cant build any TRS in I1 asthe french can kill them and if the UK moved planes to Africa on UK1 the TRS cant move by itself. Holding Egypt is viable if there is a Sea lion on its way and Italy goes for it with all its force, to hold it you need to be able to build a Minor there in UK1. If that is not a possbilty, you back up with your forces untill you meet up the units from Persia and the units from South Africa. With these and the planes you should be able to turn the tide.
If all the Axis are going for the UK the UK cant hold everything. I would give up India as it is impossible to hold anyways and the units there are very valuable in Africa/the Med. You will have a hard time but your allies will sort it out.
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I’m not suggesting attacking the German fleet without the CV/TAC and DD from Gibraltar…they are key in that attack.
I would never do a Sea Lion turn 3 as Germany…thats what Dani is suggesting.
My attack on the German fleet is: 2BB, 1CA, 2DD, 1TAC, 1CV(4,4,3,3,2,2,0)
vs
1BB, 1CA, 1CV, 2FTR, 1SUB(4,4,4,3,2,2)UK has 3 soak-offs, Germany 2. 50/50 battle from my perspective…this is why I would consider building a SUB rather than an extra TRS as Germany…which would make Sea Lion tougher since as Germany I would have 2 less ground units vs the 9 UK INF.
For the second time I ask you, why do you keep believing that UK will have 2 BB’s, 1CA and 2 DD’s left after G1???
He cant kill much else as he uses all his planes in G1 to attack the UK. @squirecam:
Turn 1(UK)…attack German fleet in SZ112:
Germany= 1CV(2FTR’s), 1BB(damaged?), 1CA, 1SUB, 3TRS.[4,4,4,3,2,2].
vs
UK= 1CV(1TAC), 2BB’s, 2CA’s, 1DD.[4,4,3,3,3,2]How is that 20%??? Looks like 50% to me.
Germany should never let its fleet get attacked. If Denmark is axis, then the UK ships cant reach it.
They have to as the UK otherwise can block a Sea lion by having a fleet in 112.
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Germany still has one fighter and five subs to kill a lot of UK fleet. With your BB+CA from the Baltic you can take out the UK CA and French CA in SZ 112. Then you send out 2 subs to the DD+trn fleet and 3 subs + 1 ftr to the BB+CA fleet
That leaves UK with 1 BB, 2DD’s , 1CV and 1 tactical to counter your SZ112 fleet. Your Canadian fleet can’t reach SZ112.
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He said that 2 subs go to 106 and 2 go to 109, that leaves 1 sub and 1 fig witch is not enough to take on 110 or 111. I would prolly not mind 109 and instead strike 110 with 3 subs and 1 fig and hope for the best if i was going to hit the RAF with the rest of my airforce.
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Don’t make the mistake of letting yourself guide by Miamibeach on this one. :-)
By making the attacks as I described against the UK fleet you have a good chance of pulling off SeaLion on G3. G2 is too early IMHO and performing poor attacks against the UK fleet might see your invasion fleet be sunk on UK2 (50% battle is good enough for the UK to leave the Italians and attack the Germans).
However when talking tactics I always reason from optimal play and average dice. And with those two in mind, UK has nothing better to do with her CV and tactical then attacking the Italians in the Med in SZ 95. That’s the topic of this thread if I am correct.
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G3 is the way to go if you want decent odds of a Sea lion. G3 will be much mote expensive tho and the fact that you did it will cost you against the Russians. Im not sure the game is over if a G3 is succesfull.
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G3 Sealion still does not have “good” odds in my opinion. It’s about a 50/50 and you lose your whole invasion force of ground units and your airforce airforce. On top of that you probably lose your own capital on R5! I still don’t think Sealion on G2 or G3 is a viable option.
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G3 Sea lion gives you better odds then 50/50 but it will cost you in the fight with the Russians. Im not sure that the Russian will take Berlin by R5 but it will be a hard fight where you will need luck and the Italians.
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How many transports are assuming the Germans will have for their G3 Sealion?
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I would say about 10 but it all depends on how the attacks in G1 went.
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G3 Sea lion gives you better odds then 50/50 but it will cost you in the fight with the Russians. Im not sure that the Russian will take Berlin by R5 but it will be a hard fight where you will need luck and the Italians.
I was assuming that a G3 Sealion would use 9 transports to carry over 9 inf and 9 tanks, plus 4 ftr and 3 tac and 1 bmb. The U.K. will have a defense of 19 to 22 inf, 2 to 3 tanks, 3 ftrs, and possibly a tac and AA. That gives the U.K. approximately equal firepower to the Germans, which makes the G3 Sealion a huge 50/50 gamble especially when you figure in most of your attack force dies and you’ve bought nothing in G1 or G2 that helps against the Soviets.
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Yea and in the mean time US (and maybe even Russia from what Emp -T said) is building its liberation fleet just in case you do get England that can land from the north or west sz.
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If you attack the UK with your air, how much would survive. 1 is taken out by aa and maybe another 2-3 by the units in the UK. That leaves you with 4 air units. The UK can then block the north route around England with 1 DD, build 1 fig and 2 dd and put them with the rest of the fleet in 110. That would be 2 BB, 1 AC, 1 CA, 3 DD, 1 fig, 1 tac. Chanses that you get to invade are not that good. I do not think there is a way to get good odds on the UK in a G2 Sea lion, i think the G3 is the way to go if you want to do it. It has to cost more then 1 AC and 2 TRS to do a Sea lion or it would be to good.
When it comes to Egypt i would not land with troops in Transjordan as they are easy to kill for the UK. If the Italians mass all. If the fleet moves the Italians cant build any TRS in I1 asthe french can kill them and if the UK moved planes to Africa on UK1 the TRS cant move by itself. Holding Egypt is viable if there is a Sea lion on its way and Italy goes for it with all its force, to hold it you need to be able to build a Minor there in UK1. If that is not a possbilty, you back up with your forces untill you meet up the units from Persia and the units from South Africa. With these and the planes you should be able to turn the tide.
If all the Axis are going for the UK the UK cant hold everything. I would give up India as it is impossible to hold anyways and the units there are very valuable in Africa/the Med. You will have a hard time but your allies will sort it out.
That is a good naval defence for UK, however the UK itself is still very weakly defended which means you have given Germany a real chance to do Sea Lion on G3 that otherwise would not exist…giving Germany a chance to build interesting stuff with its 40(at least)+17(france)=57 IPC’s. More TRS, naval units. The posibility could be that units from the current fleet:2SUBS, 2TRS(supported by air) go to SZ111, take out the UK DD and land 2INF/2ARM in Scotland…while building naval units of 1CV(2FTR’s), 2TRS, 1SUB with the 1BB, 1 CV(2FTR’s), 1CA already there. G3, Germany can then take out the UK fleet, and land 4 more units and have more aircraft. The main benefit of pausing Sea Lion is that it makes it harder for Germany to prepare for USSR.
However, you have made my main point which is that the UK CV/TAC/DD at Gibraltar must come north to deal with the Germans, and not sink the Italians in SZ95.
As for Transjordan, what would the UK attack with on its turn 2 coming from Egypt? Whatever it is will weaken the defense of Egypt by more than what the 1INF and 1ARM would be if they were on offense.
Italians dont need to build a TRS on their first turn. What planes can UK send to Egypt on turn 2? There is already 1 in Egypt that I would keep there. If UK builds an IC in Egypt, then what is it building to defend UK with from Sea Lion? If UK builds an IC in Egypt, they are building it for Italy. I’m not saying Italy has Egypt forever, and I think an orderly withdraw from Egypt might be the best thing to do if you know it cant be held.
Dont forget the 28+ air that Japan has…I have not read anyone taking those assets into account.