Starting Bids

[kaufschtick]

There used to be a thread on here about starting bids for the Allies.

I can’t seem to find it any longer?

My best friend and I have given up on the game as is, and have decided to start playing the game with a bid for the Allies.

I’ve never played Axis & Allies with a bid before, and so I thought I’d post a thread on here to solicit your thoughts and ideas on the matter.

I put the poll in just for those who have an opinion on a bid, but are not decided.

I’ll ask for the exact bid from those experienced, and also your hints and tips.

Thanks in advance! :-)

[SilverAngelSurfer]

Well, considering you’re probably the player most experienced with Pac40 (30+ games :-o), what do you think the Allies need to have a chance against Japan?

[kaufschtick]

@SAS:

Well, considering you’re probably the player most experienced with Pac40 (30+ games :-o), what do you think the Allies need to have a chance against Japan?

Well, my best friend feels that 40 is a good starting point to begin playing with.

He’s a much better player than I am, and that seems to be a good place to start, IMHO.

I was hoping that others had already come to the conclusion that a bid was needed, and to see what kinds of numbers they felt were working.

I could swear that I saw a thread on here titled “What kinds of bids are you using”.

Can’t find it now. I’d love to check it out and see what info it contained.

[SilverAngelSurfer]

@kaufschtick:

@SAS:

Well, considering you’re probably the player most experienced with Pac40 (30+ games :-o), what do you think the Allies need to have a chance against Japan?

Well, my best friend feels that 40 is a good starting point to begin playing with.

He’s a much better player than I am, and that seems to be a good place to start, IMHO.

I was hoping that others had already come to the conclusion that a bid was needed, and to see what kinds of numbers they felt were working.

I could swear that I saw a thread on here titled “What kinds of bids are you using”.

Can’t find it now. I’d love to check it out and see what info it contained.

40?  Dang, I figured it’d be high, but that’d be higher than the bid for Classic even!

And I think the “what kind of bids are you using?” thread is actually in the AA50 section…

[calvinhobbesliker]

40 ipc’s can put 2 more BB’s at Malaya, 10 inf and ftr at PI, Yun, 6 tanks and art in burma. Is that much needed?

[BadSpeller]

@kaufschtick:

Well, my best friend feels that 40 is a good starting point to begin playing with.

What kind of bid would you be using?

Just $40IPC to Allies?

Pregame placement of $40IPC of units?

There is a large difference in the worth of these 2 examples!

[Gargantua]

Wow only 21 for 3 strategically placed transport would even be good.

[jim010]

I say 25 to 30 is needed to counter the India turn 3 collapse

[kaufschtick]

@jim010:

I say 25 to 30 is needed to counter the India turn 3 collapse

I guess I have to clarify. The game we started, we gave the US their bonus 40 points to spend right on US1.

So that was effectively a 40 IPC bid to the Allies, but only for the US.

I’ve never played a bid game before, and as we started this game, I convinced Tim to play without the bid again, as I was still sure that I’d just not found the right combination of buys, moves and build s for the Allies.

I lost again as the Allies, but as we started the game with the extra 40, it didn’t really seem that far off course, but that is impossible to say after just one turn.

Tim said that he had been exchanging a few PMs with a fellow on here who said he was getting beat as the Allies with a 20 IPC bid though.

So that’s how we started, just give the US their 40 bonus income right out of the chute to spend on US1.

@SAS:

Well, considering you’re probably the player most experienced with Pac40 (30+ games :-o), what do you think the Allies need to have a chance against Japan?

All I’m trying to convey with the whole “150+ hours, 30 games” thing is that I’m not throwing out my opinions after just 2 or 3 games.

I’m not trying to impress anyone with that. When we started playing this game, I was convinced that the game must be balanced and had been thoroughly playtested.

There are a lot of folks that have only gotten to play the game a few times, and I’m sure they must still feel as I did, that they just hadn’t figured out the Allies yet.

Between my best friend Tim, a supervisor in a steel plant here in Ohio, and myself, we’ve both been the Allies as well as the Japanese. The Allies aren’t winning by either of us. Anything we’ve come up with new as the Allies, the Japanese compensate for in short order.

Tim even started a thread on here soliciting for Allied strats. There were folks who were more than happy to discuss how they’d win as the Japanese in good detail. The only thing we heard supporting Allied strats were vague comments that the Allies could win. No detials or thoughts beyond that as to how they were going to do that.

There was some stuff we’d read about things we’d already tried and countered as the japanese.

Tim said to me on the phone one day, “Those guys have no clue how to win as the Allies on there. They get on and say the Allies can win, and that’s it. If there’s a way to do it, we’re going to have to figure it out ourselves.”

Well, we’ve given up trying. But if someone wants to step up to the plate and lay out their strat, we’re all ears!

Until then, we’ll start using bids and see what happens.

[jim010]

I won’t play allies without a bid.

Both here (unless my opponentjust gives me Japan) and face to face I play we bid for pregame placement.  Bids started at $9 and are now around $24 - and I’m finding that is still not enough against a turn 3 India.  I say pregame placement bids are closer to $30.

Doing it your way, you could just say everyone starts with their bonus money?

Either way, I prefer bid, as it also balances players, not just the game.

[kaufschtick]

@jim010:

I won’t play allies without a bid.

Both here (unless my opponentjust gives me Japan) and face to face I play we bid for pregame placement.  Bids started at $9 and are now around $24 - and I’m finding that is still not enough against a turn 3 India.  I say pregame placement bids are closer to $30.

Doing it your way, you could just say everyone starts with their bonus money?

Either way, I prefer bid, as it also balances players, not just the game.

How do you guys do the bid?

Who gets the IPCs?

When do they get to spend them?

[jim010]

You bid for the allies.  It is money that is used to buy units and place on the board before the game starts.  The money can be divided up among the allies, or saved among the allies as you see fit.

Placement of units can only be in a land space you already own with that power, or in a sea space you already have units with that power.

You start bidding at what you want to take the allies with.  Then the opponent counter bids lower, if he wnats the allies for less.  Then you can bid lower again, if you want.  Bidding continues until someone is not willing to bid anymore, and the lowest bid takes the allies plus the bid money.

[kaufschtick]

@jim010:

You bid for the allies.  It is money that is used to buy units and place on the board before the game starts.  The money can be divided up among the allies, or saved among the allies as you see fit.

Placement of units can only be in a land space you already own with that power, or in a sea space you already have units with that power.

You start bidding at what you want to take the allies with.  Then the opponent counter bids lower, if he wnats the allies for less.  Then you can bid lower again, if you want.  Bidding continues until someone is not willing to bid anymore, and the lowest bid takes the allies plus the bid money.

Fairly simple, thanks for the run through. :-)

[BadSpeller]

….or, some do a sealed bid.

Each person writes down a number and then reveals the bid. (The lower number plays the Allies and places units and/or cash as outlined by jim010)

This prevents auctioning the bid down because you know you can get your opponent to go lower. (even though you may not want to win the bid to play the Allies.)

[SilverAngelSurfer]

Perhaps using a moderate to significant bid to China would help to moderate the power of the J1 attack more than bids to UK/ANZAC/US?

Giving UK or ANZAC or even US the bid almost begs Japan to attack J1 anyway before they can completely consolidate their forces, which it looks like is leading to a tremendously large bid in such cases.  However, considering all the talk about China being underpowered and needing an AA gun and such, why not put the bid in China?  They are the only country Japan can attack if they don’t do a J1 DoW, and it seems to me that the weakness of the starting Chinese position is what is allowing Japan to focus it’s forces elsewhere.  Perhaps strengthening China with the starting bid would provide Japan with enough of a reason to avoid bringing in the other Allies right away since they have to focus more on China to avoid the Chinese from spreading like rabbits, which may keep the bid to the Allies from skyrocketing.

Some problems I can see are that the rules (as far as I know) disallow us to place an officially Chinese AA gun for one thing; so we still would have the issue of China not having an AA gun until UK is at war anyway… :|  However, considering that the Burma road is open, I don’t see any problem with bidding China some artillery for an immediate C1 counter-attack.  And if a stronger China causes Japan to delay their DoW or to lose the Chinese IPCs, either way that should help the Allies, perhaps even more than UK transport bids to take the DEI right away (if there’s no J1 DoW then the starting UK transports off Malaya survive and UK can non-com to the DEI instead of having to fight through the Japanese).

Besides banning a J1 DoW altogether, as far as I can see this would be the best way to help the Allies avoid a J1 DoW without adding extra house rules (though a Chinese house rule allowing them to build units into undefended Japanese occupied Chinese territories might be cool also to slow down the Japanese even more 8-)).  Counter-points?

[Funcioneta]

@SAS:

Some problems I can see are that the rules (as far as I know) disallow us to place an officially Chinese AA gun for one thing; so we still would have the issue of China not having an AA gun until UK is at war anyway… :|

There is no point in the game rules where says that China cannot have aa guns. Simply, chinamen have jedi lightsabres that can destroy ICs for some odd reason, but ABs, NBs and aaguns are inmune to this jedi trick. As much, they cannot purchase aa guns, but the same could be said about the starting fighter. But bids are not covered by the rules so you could bid even bombers if you really want.

I’d suggest giving 1 free chinese aagun for Szechwan and then start bidding for chinese units as you would do for another power … China had some crappy old tank corps anyway so I don’t see any problem if someone wants risk money in such costly unit: China will need artillery and infantery, and 1 tank now costs the same as 2 infs

And ACME wall must be destroyed

[kaufschtick]

@BadSpeller:

….or, some do a sealed bid.

Each person writes down a number and then reveals the bid. (The lower number plays the Allies and places units and/or cash as outlined by jim010)

This prevents auctioning the bid down because you know you can get your opponent to go lower. (even though you may not want to win the bid to play the Allies.)

Hey, that’s a good idea, I kinda like that.

[kaufschtick]

@Funcioneta:

@SAS:

Some problems I can see are that the rules (as far as I know) disallow us to place an officially Chinese AA gun for one thing; so we still would have the issue of China not having an AA gun until UK is at war anyway… :|

There is no point in the game rules where says that China cannot have aa guns. Simply, chinamen have jedi lightsabres that can destroy ICs for some odd reason, but ABs, NBs and aaguns are inmune to this jedi trick. As much, they cannot purchase aa guns, but the same could be said about the starting fighter. But bids are not covered by the rules so you could bid even bombers if you really want.

I’d suggest giving 1 free chinese aagun for Szechwan and then start bidding for chinese units as you would do for another power … China had some crappy old tank corps anyway so I don’t see any problem if someone wants risk money in such costly unit: China will need artillery and infantery, and 1 tank now costs the same as 2 infs

And ACME wall must be destroyed

Funny stuff there, but those are some of the issues that I was afraid were going to rear their ugly heads as far as how the bid mechanism  was actually going to work out.

I’ll follow the discussion here to see how some of these issues are being dealt with by various groups and players.

[Van_Trump]

What are you trying to accomplish with the bid?

Prevent loss of UK Transports J1 (you would need AC + fighter = 26 ipcs) Japan can bring 4 bombers + fighter = 18 pips or 3 hits. The 2 hit AC would be enough to dissuade me. After UK1 the AC would have 2 fighters on it going forward. DEI capture is within your grasp. This is only a short-term tactical victory for the allies, however. Has huge distraction potential, though. Basically Japan would have to commit most of their fleet to attack the Bay of Bengal. (Air base on Ceylon, anyone?)

Prevent capture of Phillipines (stack of infantry would do job, say about 9 = 27 ipcs. If you can get away with only 8 put a UK inf on Borneo) Japan needs to funnel infantry to mainland Asia. Leaving it alone means US gets +7 ipc for the balance of the game (plus they get to keep the bomber!). Allies can even add fighters if they see the Japanese buildup. DD and Transport are toast regardless.

Reinforce Burma Road for China. (aa gun + 8 inf in Yunnan = 29 ipcs) With the Japanese firepower(airforce) that can be brought to bear on a chinese defensive stack I don’t know how practical this is. If UK reinforces with fighters it is doable (maybe, I normally drool if I see UK fighters in Yunnan). The aa gun alone would NOT deter me. Japan has to concentrate ground forces before tackling this strong point. Extra 2inf a turn on the front lines for China as long as this strong point is held. Problem with this build is you force Japan into the correct strategy.

Would be nice if one inf can be split off from these builds for ANZAC in New Guinia so NO can be accomplished on first turn.

All this would have to be playtested, of course.

My personal preference is to ban J1 attacks.

[jim010]

What are you trying to accomplish with the bid?

A bid is meant to be part of your allied strategy.  If you want to save the fleet in sz37, then you would bid accordingly.  If you want to give China more punch, then the bid would reflect that etc… all of which you have already stated.  I have tried each of these so far, but the bid hasn’t passed $20, and that is not enough to accomplish these.

Heck, if you are playing someone that is better than you, your bid should reflect that.