National China / Communist China double income?

[CraigBee]

Since Nationalist (NC) and Communist China (CC) can take empty territory from each other, it seems an optimal strategy is for both to ensure they leave empty territories for the other to capture.  That way they both receive income for the same territory in the same turn.

For example, say NC owns territory 1 and 2, having an infantry in territory 1 and nothing in territory 2.  CC owns territory 3 with an infantry.  Assume all three territories are worth 1 income.  On CC’s turn, it moves it’s infantry from territory 3 to 2, and collects 2 income.  On NC’s turn it moves it’s infantry from territory 1 to 3, collecting 2 income.  This is repeated every turn so that the Chinese collect 4 income from 3 territories every turn.

Is this the intent of the design?  It seems in earlier versions of the rules, NC could not take over CC territories, which prevented this silliness.

[WILD BILL]

Yea I guess they could play ring around the rosy and keep trading territories giving them a couple extra IPCs. Just to add to that, by rule the Com Chinese would take over a unoccupied Nat Chinese territory if either a Com Chinese or Russian unit entered it. So a Russian mech or tank could blitz in and out of a couple unoccupied Nat Chinese territories to give the Com Chinese control/income. Then the Nat Chinese could take it back the next turn with an inf (for the income). Then the Russians blitz into the territory the Nat Chinese unit came from so the the Com Chinese get paid etc….

[Variable]

Hmm, this will need to be looked at.

An unofficial solution (this is my opinion only and not from HBG), would be to have all Chinese collect income at the same time. Probably end of the round (after Nat China and US). Try this out and let us know.

[WILD BILL]

@Variable:

Hmm, this will need to be looked at.

An unofficial solution (this is my opinion only and not from HBG), would be to have all Chinese collect income at the same time. Probably end of the round (after Nat China and US). Try this out and let us know.

Don’t think you could count all Chinese income at the end of the round, because Japan goes between the two Chinese factions. If the Red Chinese take a territory from Japan, then Japan takes it back on their turn, then the Red Chinese would have lost out on the income for their temporary advance. Could possibly tally up both at the end of the Red Chinese turn though (would be no Japanese involvement).

If you really think it is a problem, then just have one Chinese power actually hand over the IPC(s) stolen from the other in a territory swap (instead of from the bank) it wouldn’t be two hard to track on the Chinese turns. Could be like they also seized equipment. That way they wouldn’t be double dipping. The next turn if they still control that territory, then the income would be paid from the bank as normal.

I guess overall this could be a problem, but once the Japanese get going there isn’t going to be much swapping (maybe a territory or two). Plus the two western Chinese territories at the Russian border have no value. If the Japanese start losing the fight for Asia, then there could be some swapping even for the coastal Chinese territories. Not sure if this is that big a deal, but could see people figuring out ways to exploit it.

At least the Chinese don’t get partisans (like Russia), that would really screw the Japanese.

[WILD BILL]

I do have some other questions about the Chinese factions. Some are carry over from before, but not answered definitively by the game’s creators.

1. Was the word original intended to be in the text under Nat Chinese (#8 pg29). It says the Nat Chinese can capture original Red Chinese territories instead of liberating them. There are only two original Red Chinese territories in the game, so are the Nat Chinese allowed to capture (or retake) unoccupied territories from the Reds that aren’t original Red Chinese. This could be interpreted that they can not capture Red Chinese territories that aren’t original, which would prevent them from taking back their own territories from the Reds (which would be silly, but fixes the double dipping thing LOL).

2. Both Chinese powers are on on the Allies side, can they both be on the same territory. Russian units could back up the either Chinese powers, are the Chinese allowed to reinforce each other?

3. When the Japanese capture a Chinese capital do they get the income stored there. Rules don’t say specifically (that I saw anyway), but do say the only exceptions are for Russia & UK (stored income goes to bank), so I would think YES the Japanese also capture the income from both Chinese factions. Being the Chinese can capture unoccupied territories from each other, would that include capturing income if that territory is a capital. This could be a good move to keep Chinese income from falling into Japanese hands. I Know that in G40 the Chinese income isn’t transferred (Chinese keep it for later), but that game doesn’t have Chinese capitals either.

4. The Communist China rules (pg29) don’t list territories the Red Chinese can enter or not enter (FEC or French to be exact). Rules do say the Reds can attack an axis power w/Russia as long as both are at war with that axis power. So they can liberate or capture Japanese held territories with a joint venture, and I would imagine they could also attack Japanese held territories by themselves outside of the Chinese borders just like the Nat Chinese (although this would be difficult with just inf). Are the Red Chinese limited to French territories, and Hong Kong (like the Nat Chinese) or can they enter any original UK FEC territory by design (just as Russia could). Furthermore can the Red Chinese leave China and NCM into orig FEC or Russian owned territories to seek refuge or reinforce (this last one is doubtful).

[Variable]

I will attempt to answer what I can here. I will note rules in red, and my opinion in blue

@WILD:

I do have some other questions about the Chinese factions. Some are carry over from before, but not answered definitively by the game’s creators.

1. Was the word original intended to be in the text under Nat Chinese (#8 pg29). It says the Nat Chinese can capture original Red Chinese territories instead of liberating them. There are only two original Red Chinese territories in the game, so are the Nat Chinese allowed to capture (or retake) unoccupied territories from the Reds that aren’t original Red Chinese. This could be interpreted that they can not capture Red Chinese territories that aren’t original, which would prevent them from taking back their own territories from the Reds (which would be silly, but fixes the double dipping thing LOL).

Liberating a territory by definition means restoring it to it’s original owner after taking it from an invader. If Nat Chinese take control of a Japanese held territory that was originally Com Chinese owned, they capture for themselves instead of returning control of it to Com China. And, although omitted from the rules, the vice versa would also be true. I will be sure to include that in the next revision.

This question may actually help solve the “double china income” problem. I am still working on that. If we only allow a Chinese faction to take a territory from the other Chinese faction when captured from an Axis country, it would solve the problem, right? In other words, Chinese can’t take from each other unless they are taking it from the Japanese. Let me know.

2. Both Chinese powers are on on the Allies side, can they both be on the same territory. Russian units could back up the either Chinese powers, are the Chinese allowed to reinforce each other?

No, they can’t occupy the same territory. That is what is meant in the rules when it says they cannot attack each other.

3. When the Japanese capture a Chinese capital do they get the income stored there. Rules don’t say specifically (that I saw anyway), but do say the only exceptions are for Russia & UK (stored income goes to bank), so I would think YES the Japanese also capture the income from both Chinese factions. Being the Chinese can capture unoccupied territories from each other, would that include capturing income if that territory is a capital. This could be a good move to keep Chinese income from falling into Japanese hands. I Know that in G40 the Chinese income isn’t transferred (Chinese keep it for later), but that game doesn’t have Chinese capitals either.

Since the Chinese taking each other’s territories is still a bit up in the air, I will only comment on Axis powers capturing Chinese capitals. Yes, they would capture the income stored there as well.

4. The Communist China rules (pg29) don’t list territories the Red Chinese can enter or not enter (FEC or French to be exact). Rules do say the Reds can attack an axis power w/Russia as long as both are at war with that axis power. So they can liberate or capture Japanese held territories with a joint venture, and I would imagine they could also attack Japanese held territories by themselves outside of the Chinese borders just like the Nat Chinese (although this would be difficult with just inf). Are the Red Chinese limited to French territories, and Hong Kong (like the Nat Chinese) or can they enter any original UK FEC territory by design (just as Russia could). Furthermore can the Red Chinese leave China and NCM into orig FEC or Russian owned territories to seek refuge or reinforce (this last one is doubtful).

Since the rules don’t address this, and we’ve never had it come up, I will offer my personal opinion. I would only allow the Com Chinese to move within the confines of Com China, Nat China, Japanese controlled China, and Hong Kong. Remember, they were not friends with the French or the Brits. Hong Kong could be considered a special case perhaps. I will pose this to the group and get an official ruling