Should Japan attack Pearl on first turn?

[Jennifer]

Excuse my ignorance here, but I think mixing any bidding into the debate would be rather unwise. Mostly because the bidding is too dynamic to contribute to the debate.

There are good and bad points to attacking Hawaii’s fleet. First the bad:

You could loose valuable ships you’ll need later.
You might need the aircraft you assign to the fleet there for a mainland attack.
You might loose your battle-boats if the US counter attacks with aircraft and has lucky rolls in the defense of it’s fleet.

On the plus side:

You arn’t going to be using those Battle-boats for anything else, anyway. Admit it, most Russian players pull their forces away from the Far East to assist in creating an Eastern Defensive Line (7 Inf. 1 Armor.)

The carrier just makes good fodder.

You can still pull all your fighters in to assist on the mainland attack.

Odds are the Far East is a walk in.

What in the world were you going to do with that submarine in the solomn’s anyway?

I guess I’m saying I always take the attack against the Carrier Group in Hawaii because I think the Japanese fleet should be utilized.

If you let the US Fleet survive they MIGHT, if they don’t know any better, try to build a fleet to take you out. However, most players I know will just add the extra fighter, sub and carrier to the battle-boat and transport on their way over to the east coast…making it all that much harder on Germany.

[Guest]

Excuse my ignorance here, but I think mixing any bidding into the debate would be rather unwise. Mostly because the bidding is too dynamic to contribute to the debate.

No I think its necessary because there are those out there who incorrectly believe that by bidding large amounts of troops to Japan this enables them to hit Pearl as they have a greater ability to deal with the risk that you talk about.

You could loose valuable ships you’ll need later.

But so could the Americans. I can say as the Allies you’d better not even give me the option to retreat the sub because with this one unit I can cause all kinds of havoc. In otherwords Japan has to attack Pearl, and better get 3hits on the first round of combat.

You might need the aircraft you assign to the fleet there for a mainland attack.

Yes but giving America ships is always unwise, not only because they can be used in the Pacific but because they can be moved to the Atlantic as well. Also, if Japan is smart and commits plenty of forces to pearl at most they should lose 1 ftr which isn’t bad.

You might loose your battle-boats if the US counter attacks with aircraft and has lucky rolls in the defense of it’s fleet.

And America should rarely do this. Even when I retreat the US sub and have 3 ships I am not necessarily going to attack the fleet. The deciding factor is how important will the battleship be in the Atlantic, and just how weak is the Jap fleet in Pearl. If they have 2bb 2ftrs Cv no way will I risk it eventhough it could work out. It just isn’t worth the risk. However, if its 2bb Cv ftr then I might.

The carrier just makes good fodder.

Never do this! The Jap carrier is one of the most important pieces on the board as it will most effectively deter/prevent a US Pacific strategy, or from the Allies mauling the Jap fleet if and when it moves to the RedSz many turns down the road.

If you let the US Fleet survive they MIGHT, if they don’t know any better, try to build a fleet to take you out. However, most players I know will just add the extra fighter, sub and carrier to the battle-boat and transport on their way over to the east coast…making it all that much harder on Germany.

But this isn’t such a bad idea. Dumping American money into the Pacific forces Japan to as well rather than in Asia which is much prefered. The question of course is can the UK and Russia deal with Germany. If Germany is weak because too much of the bid went to Japan then you just might see it.

[DerDritteReich17]

Very good points, all of you. Everyone has their own opinion and I love to hear about them. I think that if I were to play some of you in A&A I could explain what I mean about a 1st round Blitz by the Axis that can decide who wins or who loses. I think it is just hard to explain. Alright, thanks for the ideas.

We have two ears and one mouth, so we can listen twice as well as we speak.
-Albert Einstein

[Jennifer]

Mr. AgentSmith:

I think you got the wrong impression of my arguement. Other then the bidding aspect anyway, which you got right on. What I was trying to do was point out both the pro’s and con’s to attacking Pearl on the first round.

As for saving the sub, I have to admit, that was something I never thought to do. What I am more worried about, as the Jap player, is allowing the US to have a carrier and BB in the Atlantic. Germany has a big enough headache without having to worry about a BB and AC w/2 fighters defending US transports and an AC w/2 fighters defending British Transports. After all, there is only so much you can dump into fighters to attack enemy fleets w/o the USSR crushing you.

Just my opinion. For the record, however, I always, ALWAYS attack Pearl. My BB’s and Sub arn’t doing anything else anyway (especially in USSR Rest. games) and if I loose a BB and/or the sub, it isnt a big deal.

If you can force the US to blow 18 of those 36 starter IPCs on a new carrier, that’s 2 of 4 possible transports s/he can’t buy.

[OpTorch]

What units do you send for pearling after Man-Kwa attack by russians and uk?

[Jennifer]

I send two BBs, the AC, the Sub and a fighter. Everything else can and should be used to attack US, UK and USSR Forces in the Asian conflict.

[Guest]

If you can force the US to blow 18 of those 36 starter IPCs on a new carrier, that’s 2 of 4 possible transports s/he can’t buy.

But why should the US buy a carrier at all. Additionally, if you use all your surface ships to Pearl and I retreat my sub I can do all sorts of damage in the Pacific. My favorite is to retreat it to Mexico to allow both the bb trn to move immediately to the Atlantic. However, I may be tempted to attack 2-3 trns in the JapSz. Not because its high percentage but because there is little to lose. More importantly, with the sub if the pearl attack goes even slightly bad I will counterattack always. Even if there is a 2bb Cv 2ftrs I may attack with bb sub trn 2ftrs bmb. With that I should score 3 hits to the Japanese 3. On round 2 I will clear the seazone, and lose 1-2 more units. So really the Americans should take with 1-2 units which is not a bad tradeoff to make at all.

[DarthMaximus]

I usually do Pearl on J1, I just don’t like seeing those US ships in the Pacific.

[Jennifer]

I like to have my own AC when I play the US. Adds str to any atlantic fleet and comes in handy later when I need to take out Japan. Seeings as round one is most likely the only round the US will see all 36 IPCs, it’s logically the best round to get the carrier. Besides, you can still send both fighters to the UK and get some transports. You arn’t going to be invading W Euro or Finland in the first round anyway, so you have a round to kill. Not to mention, if you just build trannies, the Jerries can send a bomber or two (if they built another one for some reason) to take out all your trannies if you dont have SOME defense of them.

Now, if you are playing with destroyers, we’ve got a different situation on our hands. I’d rather get a destroyer and 3 trannies then a carrier and 2 trannies.

[Guest]

I like to have my own AC when I play the US. Adds str to any atlantic fleet and comes in handy later when I need to take out Japan.

I don’t for several reasons. First, when Berlin falls then the US can buy a carrier to throw against Japan, and since they are likely to take Berlin they will have the money. Secondly, why buy a carrier when you get a bb for free. Third, a carrier without ftrs is weak, but leaving ftrs on it deprives other places of air support. Finally, I hate buying naval units, even for America. Recently, I’ve been retreating the sub from Pearl so as to spirt the WUS transport immediately to the Atlantic. Since the US already starts with 2trannies that greatly reduces their naval build up to only 16-24ipcs into these units. However, you want to spend 40-48ipcs, I think that me spending half of what you will is going to do better in the short term, and the long term.

the Jerries can send a bomber or two (if they built another one for some reason) to take out all your trannies if you dont have SOME defense of them.

I will always let them send a bmb versus 3trns, but I would also reinforce with Russian units to help defend. On G2 they can only hit the EUSSz with a bmb, and since I send the WUS fleet to the WPanSz fleet this will be the only time they will get a shot at my transports unescorted. Further, US1-US2 will likely be the last turn I buy any naval units for the US.

[SamuriSoilder]

Now these are the two main places where the US can attack the Japanese. But Midway only has 1 infantry and the Hawaiian Islands has 1 infantry, Aircraft carrier(), Submarine, and fighter(). Now I am always Japan when I play. What I normally do is attack Midway and well guard it. But the US will have a huge advantage with Midway because they can well guard it with naval units. If there was a way to do take out 2 places at once.(hint: I might have a guide for that). But if you attack Midway, Hawaii will start its attack on the Japanese Islands. Hard to say. Midway will fortify it self for sure. So it is up to the Japs plans.

[Kalinzar]

Did anyone ever try to conquer hawaii in J1, then move on with the trans and 1 of 2 inf and the surviving battlefleet to panama? Would be allmost worth trying to see the look on my opponents face when i enter the Atlantic with 2 bbs and a carrier (allthough i guess i need loads of luck to actually get there with all those ships and do something useful)

[aaFiendish]

I have seen hawaii taken in the first turn. It is sort of a pain for the US because hawaii is close enough to the coast to be used as a staging ground. However, I don’t think it is worth it for japan. You have to expend extra effort to hit pearl hard, and then extra planes to make sure you take hawaii. On top of that, you are not using a transport for asia, which you really need.

While the thought of having a navy in the atlantic would be great and all, it will not last very long and as you said would have to have incredible luck.

[221B Baker Street]

I don’t bother taking Hawaii on J1, it is only 1 ipc and slows down the necessary Jap push in Asia. A smart US player will ignore this, and the possibility of Jap strat bombing the west coast isn’t too great a concern until much later in the game (when the game should already be decided). A smart Jap player will be better off strat bombing USSR - becasue the bomber(s) will be in position to assist other endeavers such as a possible capture of Moscow. However, if I am trying for economic victory as the Axis, I will likely take it (perhaps turn 7).