Submarine FAQ Question

[kaufschtick]

Holy Crap! We never saw this one either! I’m gonna have to run off and grab the rules… :-o

[MaherC]

again, it is in the rulebook which is a misprinted pile of garbage as we have learned.  the errata has changed the way this plays.

[moompix]

@MaherC:

again, it is in the rulebook which is a misprinted pile of garbage as we have learned.  the errata has changed the way this plays.

The errata clarifies that you can’t attack the unaccompanied transports of powers you are not at war with. It still allows subs to attack the unaccompanied transports of powers you are at war with.

[Mino1124]

@moompix:

@MaherC:

again, it is in the rulebook which is a misprinted pile of garbage as we have learned.  the errata has changed the way this plays.

The errata clarifies that you can’t attack the unaccompanied transports of powers you are not at war with. It still allows subs to attack the unaccompanied transports of powers you are at war with.

No that’s not the question at hand. Let me give you an example.
I have a Transport in SZ4 and a Battleship in SZ7. The enemy has a Sub in SZ8. The question is could you have the Transport and Battleship meet up in SZ8 then continue their move to SZ1, since the Battleship and Transport met up on that spot and therefore the Transport will be escorted, or since the Transport and Battleship STARTED in seperate SZ’s would the Sub get the surprise attack on the way to SZ1?

[kaufschtick]

We need an A&AP40 rules hotline set up ASAP.

I figure at least 25-30 operators on duty around the clock.

[Col. Flagg]

I suppose the original question was what major changes from AA50 have occurred, but it evolved into clarifying this strange rule that breaks at least two fundamentals: combat during the non-combat phase (which is why I thought they changed the AA rules a long time ago for flying over an AA gun) and using the sub’s attack value when it is not that player’s turn.

[WILD BILL]

I caught this rule. Mainly because my son house ruled something similar into AA50. He wanted a sub (or better yet a fleet of subs) to always have the option of sneak attack on any surface ship crossing over w/o a DD. He was happy to see at least you can now sneak attack lone transports. He feels he was on the right track.

Any way with the new rule, I took it as if you merge war ships and transports from different sz into a sz w/enemy sub your transports would be considered escorted. Even if the sz the sub is in is the final destination for amp assault. These movements are simultaneous, once your ships are in the same sz they are considered one fleet.

I don’t have the rule with me. I don’t remember if this rule only applies to enemy combat, or if its allowed in enemy non combat too.

[moompix]

It’s allowed in enemy non-combat, as well.

[Stoney229]

@WILD:

Any way with the new rule, I took it as if you merge war ships and transports from different sz into a sz w/enemy sub your transports would be considered escorted. Even if the sz the sub is in is the final destination for amp assault. These movements are simultaneous, once your ships are in the same sz they are considered one fleet.

I agree

[Mino1124]

@WILD:

Any way with the new rule, I took it as if you merge war ships and transports from different sz into a sz w/enemy sub your transports would be considered escorted. Even if the sz the sub is in is the final destination for amp assault. These movements are simultaneous, once your ships are in the same sz they are considered one fleet.

Very true if all movement in any given phase is simultanious it wouldn’t make sense for it to be otherwise. Just like if a Transport, and Battleship, start in SZ1 and move through SZ8 even with a Sub they’d be able to split up, and one go to SZ4 and the other go to SZ7. If it works one way I’d say it works the other too.

[Stoney229]

@Variable:

Seems to add even more fuel to the fire that DD are a way better buy than CC. Can we make DD 9 yet? Or do we go with CC at 11.

CC at 11!

[Stoney229]

@Krieghund:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do friendly surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  A surface warship that starts its movement along with one or more transports and moves with them will prevent sub attacks.  Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

This seems strange.  If UK has a lone sub in z39, and I move a cruiser from sz37 to sz39, and a transport from sz42 to sz39, then the sub still gets a shot?  Or is the cruiser a “friendly surface warship that [was] already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and [did] not move”?  Either way, I feel like it could be worded different.  It sounds like these “friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move” are intended to be only ships that were in the sz prior to the combat move.  If that is the case (I would like to ask “why?”), I think it should say so, since it’s not really intuitive (to me), and the rule might therefore be interpreted as "friendly surface warships that exist in the enemy sub’s sea zone at the same time as the transport (since combat moves from different sea zones are in practice done separately and in an order) and do not necessarily move with the transport will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

[Krieghund]

Simply arriving at or passing through a sea zone at the same time as the transport is not enough.  Either a dedicated effort to escort it (moving along with it) or patrolling the area that it will pass through (remaining in the sea zone and not moving) is required to protect a moving transport from a sub attack.

[dinosaur]

I can see that we are going to have to walk through the sub rules step by step to get this straight.  I reread the rules last evening and I was surprised at some of the subtle questions I missed.

First, it appears “defending” subs can shoot at unescorted transports.  This is a slight contradiction to the rule that says transports can ignore subs during an amphibious landing.  It appear the subs do get to make a single roll against the transports.  However, if I read the rules properly, these subs would only hit on a 1.

[MaherC]

lame.  p51’s didn’t take off from the same airstrips as b17’s yet they escorted them all the way to berlin and back.

you should be able to start a DD in sz4, an LC from 8, have them meet in 7 on their way to 6 and be protected from a sub in 7.  I can see if you want to say you  send the DD from 4 to 16 and the LC from 8 to 6 and while both are in 7 the DD cannot cover the LC.  Fine.  Big ocean, blah blah.  But if you are willing to have the DD move in both squares w/the LC…

I guess we are to assume that all these ships are sitting in the exact middle of the sz’s which they are in.

[Variable]

@dinosaur:

I can see that we are going to have to walk through the sub rules step by step to get this straight.  I reread the rules last evening and I was surprised at some of the subtle questions I missed.

First, it appears “defending” subs can shoot at unescorted transports.  This is a slight contradiction to the rule that says transports can ignore subs during an amphibious landing.  It appear the subs do get to make a single roll against the transports.  However, if I read the rules properly, these subs would only hit on a 1.

Actually they hit on a 2 even if defending in this case.

[dinosaur]

Variable, I understood the defending submarines to only be allowed to make this attack under the “Surprise Strike” rule.  This rule, written on page 16 of the rule book reads as follows:

Each attacking submarine conducting a Surprise Strike attack rolls one die.  Attacking submarines that roll a “2” or less score a hit.  After the attacking player has rolled for all attacking submarines, the defender chooses one sea unit (submarines cannot hit air units) for each hit scored and moves it behind the casualty strip.  (Note that undamaged capital ships that are hit only once are not removed.)

Then each defending submarine conducting a Surprise Strike attack rolls one die.  Defending submarines that roll a “1” score a hit.  After the defending player has rolled for all defending submarines, the attacker chooses one sea unit for each hit scored and removes it from play.  (Note, undamaged capital ships that are hit only once are not removed.)

Since the subs I spoke of are not on the attacker’s side (the side making active moves), I believe they are rolling for 1s and not 2s.  This is why I posted the scenario in order to begin working through the many possible misconceptions.

[Krieghund]

This is a special attack, not a normal combat.  The rules state that the subs attack on a 2 and get one shot only.

[dinosaur]

I will look for that rule.

[BadSpeller]

page 30>under ‘Does Not Block Enemy Movement’